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Max N/A power from Gen 3


This is a discussion on Max N/A power from Gen 3 within the Performance Mods forums, part of the Viper Truck SRT-10 Discussion category!
Originally Posted by caveman Someone check my bench-racer math: A port that flows 285cfm at 28", on a 505cid V10, ...



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Old 09-22-2015, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by caveman View Post
Someone check my bench-racer math: A port that flows 285cfm at 28", on a 505cid V10, should be good for 670+hp. Subtract 30hp for accessories (I made that number up, so any read data is welcome) and an additional 13% for RC SRT10-like drivetrain losses, and a stock Gen III head should support around 550rwhp, correct? Based on that, a fully ported Gen III head (330cfm @ 28") should be good for right around an additional 93rwhp.

Man, I've seen those tables and, well I guess they could/should work. Do they?
I don't think so, not in the real world.

High cylinder head flow, sells heads when you are in the market for them. Remember the Viper engine already HAS a performance head and Mopar spent a TON of money on development because POWER sells performance vehicles. Can you make improvements in flow and power on a stock head? ABSOLUTELY but only up to a point.

Pro Stock used to "race" flow benches until they found an increase in c.f.m. was producing LESS power than the previous version of the ported head they tried, that actually flowed less.

There is quality of flow.
There is quantity of flow.

And then there is what the engine wants/needs which is a head that produces MAXIMUM power and NOT the maximum possible c.f.m. numbers.

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2005 QC N.A.
624 Wheel HP x 1.27 = 800-'ish flywheel (?)
11:1 Pump-Gas
14.9L/100 km. or 15.8 U.S. Miles Per Gallon
5600 pounds
11.88@115 MPH in "D" for Drive

No Power Adders
Full B&B Exhaust WITH Cats
Unported Street-Striker Heads w Custom Roller
Unported O.E.M. Intake Manifold
FSTJACK Hand-Ported TB
MONSTER R/X Dual-Vacuum Catch-Can
A built 48RE transmission that actually keeps working!
Tuned by Maestro Chris Jensen

Last edited by rottenronnie; 09-22-2015 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 09-22-2015, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rottenronnie View Post
Man, I've seen those tables and, well I guess they could/should work. Do they?
I don't think so, not in the real world.

High cylinder head flow, sells heads when you are in the market for them. Remember the Viper engine already HAS a performance head and Mopar spent a TON of money on development because POWER sells performance vehicles. Can you make improvements in flow and power on a stock head? ABSOLUTELY but only up to a point.

Pro Stock used to "race" flow benches until they found an increase in c.f.m. was producing LESS power than the previous version of the ported head they tried, that actually flowed less.

There is quality of flow.
There is quantity of flow.

And then there is what the engine wants/needs which is a head that produces MAXIMUM power and NOT the maximum possible c.f.m. numbers.
I agree with you regarding quantity of flow vs quality of flow. This is where the term "power under the curve" comes from, IMO. That's why I used a stock head (285cfm) for my baseline. Interesting to compare that to a 906/452 RB casting (220cfm)!
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Old 09-22-2015, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by caveman View Post
I agree with you regarding quantity of flow vs quality of flow. This is where the term "power under the curve" comes from, IMO. That's why I used a stock head (285cfm) for my baseline. Interesting to compare that to a 906/452 RB casting (220cfm)!
Yeah the 440 head (stock trim) didn't have much going for it, back in the day.
I saw some radically ported 906s that had a piston burn pattern about 2" across, the rest of the piston top had no indication of combustion, only fuel wash in the form of a shiny aluminum surface.
Big c.f.m. numbers though but no 1/4 mile m.p.h. numbers on the top end (the engines failed to produce good power).
__________________
2005 QC N.A.
624 Wheel HP x 1.27 = 800-'ish flywheel (?)
11:1 Pump-Gas
14.9L/100 km. or 15.8 U.S. Miles Per Gallon
5600 pounds
11.88@115 MPH in "D" for Drive

No Power Adders
Full B&B Exhaust WITH Cats
Unported Street-Striker Heads w Custom Roller
Unported O.E.M. Intake Manifold
FSTJACK Hand-Ported TB
MONSTER R/X Dual-Vacuum Catch-Can
A built 48RE transmission that actually keeps working!
Tuned by Maestro Chris Jensen

Last edited by rottenronnie; 09-22-2015 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 09-22-2015, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rottenronnie View Post
Yeah the 440 head (stock trim) didn't have much going for it, back in the day.
I saw some radically ported 906s that had a piston burn pattern about 2" across, the rest of the piston top had no indication of combustion, only fuel wash in the form of a shiny aluminum surface.
Big c.f.m. numbers though but no 1/4 mile m.p.h. numbers on the top end (the engines failed to produce good power).
Is it fair to say that quantity makes WOT peak horsepower (and thereof MPH) while quality of flow produces torque, drivability, responsiveness, etc (E/T)?
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Old 09-22-2015, 06:51 PM
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Higher c.f.m. than what the engine wants will produce LESS power.


Liquid fuel DOESN"T burn so if the A/F mix is upset by a shearing effect (in the case of a poor port design or excessively ported cylinder head) where fuel and air separate, a portion of that A/F mix won't burn.
That will drop power. Burn as much of the A/F inside the cylinder and you will have maximum efficiency.

Quality flow produces power.
__________________
2005 QC N.A.
624 Wheel HP x 1.27 = 800-'ish flywheel (?)
11:1 Pump-Gas
14.9L/100 km. or 15.8 U.S. Miles Per Gallon
5600 pounds
11.88@115 MPH in "D" for Drive

No Power Adders
Full B&B Exhaust WITH Cats
Unported Street-Striker Heads w Custom Roller
Unported O.E.M. Intake Manifold
FSTJACK Hand-Ported TB
MONSTER R/X Dual-Vacuum Catch-Can
A built 48RE transmission that actually keeps working!
Tuned by Maestro Chris Jensen

Last edited by rottenronnie; 09-22-2015 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 09-22-2015, 07:49 PM
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Thank you for the informative posts, gentlemen.
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Old 09-22-2015, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Wastelands Warrior View Post
Needless to say, Trainman has set the bar for n/a power, but I was wondering what kind of numbers could be had with a more conventional n/a build, as in utilizing the Gen 3 heads and intake.

A decent Viper with a smallish' 232 @.050" cam will routinely make 625-645 without cats.


I think JTS has about the best power I've heard of on a truck with 600'ish.
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Old 09-22-2015, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by caveman View Post
A Striker headed Gen 3 could match Jerry's max power levels. Keep in mind that Jerry's build isn't a "max effort" build. All people involved have worked to make sure it's a street able combo that will work well in Jerry's 4400 pound truck.
No. A Striker head will never get a sniff at Jerry's Gen 4 heads.
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Old 09-22-2015, 08:09 PM
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No. A Striker head will never get a sniff at Jerry's Gen 4 heads.
The (unported, in this case) Striker-Rs (Dom's) have no rivals.
__________________
2005 QC N.A.
624 Wheel HP x 1.27 = 800-'ish flywheel (?)
11:1 Pump-Gas
14.9L/100 km. or 15.8 U.S. Miles Per Gallon
5600 pounds
11.88@115 MPH in "D" for Drive

No Power Adders
Full B&B Exhaust WITH Cats
Unported Street-Striker Heads w Custom Roller
Unported O.E.M. Intake Manifold
FSTJACK Hand-Ported TB
MONSTER R/X Dual-Vacuum Catch-Can
A built 48RE transmission that actually keeps working!
Tuned by Maestro Chris Jensen
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 09-22-2015, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rottenronnie View Post
The (unported, in this case) Striker-Rs (Dom's) have no rivals.
Sorry to disagree with you.
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