President Obama's Gun Speech

ViperJeff said:

last, which is worse, someone that kills 20 children one at a time over several days or one that kills 20 in 10 minutes....

Vj

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HDVIPER said:

Agreed... but would it not make it just a little bit harder for him to kill 26 people in a blink of an eye? He'd be able to kill 6, then what do you think would happen? I suppose he could carry 5 - 6 shooters and kill as many people as this asshole did... :dontknow:

What kind of speaking out do you recommend we do? How much speaking out? When, where, to whom? Please let me know, so I can do something to stop this bs!




You're right, the ammunition killed those children. Which were fired from a rifle that was made for warfare. Brought to a school, where children were learning by a crazy s.o.b. All of those factors contributed to this nightmare. Take out any single factor and we don't have the massacre.

Why can't I limit the number of rounds? Where in the Constitution does it explain that I am not allowed to limit the number of rounds a magazine can hold?




Show me one instance of a guy without a weapon of mass destruction killing 20 children in a matter of minutes... I'm willing to bet you can't find one.

Look, I agree with your philosophy of taking responsibility for your actions and those of your children. Good for you. I am of the same mindset.

So then, what IS the problem? What do you think the options are for trying to keep this from happening again?



And after that? Would you let that child die in vein?

I hope that second part is not a personal attack...:boxing:

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ViperJeff said:

HDViper, I respect your right to be unarmed. The 2nd Amendment does not say all citizens must be armed at all time to protect themselves against acts of violence.

By the same token, I hope you can respect my right to quietly conceal carry. I pray every day that people will do the right thing and that I am never faced with the realization that I might have to take anothers life to protect my family.

This is not about mass murder. Most acts of violence happen one on one and a lot of times the weapon is a weapon of convience. Training teaches us never to inject ourselves in the middle of a conflict. Most of the time it can be resolved by dialing 911 and waiting the few minutes for the local PD to show up.

Other times, the local PD just might be those precious few seconds too far away, then what. Do we say that its fair if a 250lb man is beating a 110 lb woman to death and her only defense is her own fist?

We could put every senario in the book under a microscope and try and decide what we should allow and what we shouldn't.





last, which is worse, someone that kills 20 children one at a time over several days or one that kills 20 in 10 minutes....

Vj

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505'sFastestViper. said:

There are 254 definitions for a WMD...Everything that put this bomb together is still available

Yes it is illegal to have a bomb according to the fed state and local govt with a propellant over 4 oz i believe..
the fact something is illegal does not change the outcome...

Is killing people illegal???

From what i could tell someone could still rent a uhaul and load it with diesel and fertilizer and drive it throug a fuckin school!!!!

and you would be mad that they rent uhauls big enough to put 500 galons of diesel and 4000 pound of fertilizer.....
but if they only limited the size of the uhaul so many children would have been saved....sigh insert sarcasm

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mopar-or-no-car said:

No....let us take the weapons away from the working class/legitimate persons....so when some crackhead or mentally deranged person breaks into your house you can miss a kill on him on the 9th shot cause you couldnt carry a clip over 10 rounds...then he kills you and your family cause you were 1 round shy????..

Now some may call this natural selection!!!

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ViperJeff said:

However the president and team want every semi auto and every clip over 7 rounds. That would include my xdm completion hand gun and my sc xd

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505'sFastestViper. said:

That did happen. I don't argue with democrats I'm out.

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HDVIPER said:

Last I heard, the President wants to limit magazines to 10 rounds.

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ViperJeff said:

One hold 11 the other 16

You know they won't care if I only put 10 rounds in the magazine, that fact it hold 11 and 16 is what will be counted.

My BL22 hold 16


I think one of the things that troubles me is that these things happen in gun free zones. The bad guys know they are walking into a safe environment. The Aurora guy passed several movie theaters showing batman to get to one that was a gun free zone. No I'm not saying any all places one should go loaded for bear, but the honest and law abiding citizen will obey, the bad guy won't. Take away the sign, leave a sense of unknown. It's like a concealed weapon is better than one worn on the hip. Keeps me safer in my opinion as the bad guy just doesn't know.

Some like shoot hoops, some play baseball, some people read and some people surf. people enjoy all kinds of activities. I enjoy shooting and competing with guns of all kinds. I may not be the best and I will never be good enough to earn money at it.

I also believe that all the laws in the world, to include complete disarmament, will not prevent a bad guy from using a gun

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ViperJeff said:

Oh, for those that haven't read the Bill of Rights. No if's, no buts, no maybe's. Keep in mind the:

The purpose of the Bill of Rights was to guarantee the individual rights of citizens under the Constitution. These are listed in the first 10 Amendments to the Constitution.

Knowing the tendencies of governments to infringe on the rights of its citizens, many involved in writing the Constitution felt that these rights should be explicitly stated. In this way, the federal government could not arbitrarily abridge them.

The Bill of Rights restricts the powers and authority of the Federal Government and establishes many of the civil and political rights enjoyed in the United States, including the right to due process of law and the freedoms of speech, press, religion, assembly, and petition.

The Bill of Rights states what the government can and cannot do, and asserts the rights of the people, with which no law or government action should interfere.



The Bill of Rights: A Transcription
The Preamble to The Bill of Rights
Congress of the United States
begun and held at the City of New-York, on
Wednesday the fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.
THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.
RESOLVED by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution of the United States, all, or any of which Articles, when ratified by three fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of the said Constitution; viz.
ARTICLES in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution.
Note: The following text is a transcription of the first ten amendments to the Constitution in their original form. These amendments were ratified December 15, 1791, and form what is known as the "Bill of Rights."
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Amendment III
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
Amendment VII
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The Constitution: Amendments 11-27
Constitutional Amendments 1-10 make up what is known as The Bill of Rights.
Amendments 11-27 are listed below.
AMENDMENT XI
Passed by Congress March 4, 1794. Ratified February 7, 1795.
Note: Article III, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by amendment 11.
The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against one of the United States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens or Subjects of any Foreign State.

AMENDMENT XII
Passed by Congress December 9, 1803. Ratified June 15, 1804.
Note: A portion of Article II, section 1 of the Constitution was superseded by the 12th amendment.
The Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate; -- the President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted; -- The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. [And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President. --]* The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.
*Superseded by section 3 of the 20th amendment.

AMENDMENT XIII
Passed by Congress January 31, 1865. Ratified December 6, 1865.
Note: A portion of Article IV, section 2, of the Constitution was superseded by the 13th amendment.
Section 1.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

AMENDMENT XIV
Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.
Note: Article I, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by section 2 of the 14th amendment.
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Section 2.
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age,* and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.
Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
Section 5.
The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
*Changed by section 1 of the 26th amendment.

AMENDMENT XV
Passed by Congress February 26, 1869. Ratified February 3, 1870.
Section 1.
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude--
Section 2.
The Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

AMENDMENT XVI
Passed by Congress July 2, 1909. Ratified February 3, 1913.
Note: Article I, section 9, of the Constitution was modified by amendment 16.
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.


AMENDMENT XVII
Passed by Congress May 13, 1912. Ratified April 8, 1913.
Note: Article I, section 3, of the Constitution was modified by the 17th amendment.
The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote. The electors in each State shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the State legislatures.
When vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies: Provided, That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct.
This amendment shall not be so construed as to affect the election or term of any Senator chosen before it becomes valid as part of the Constitution.


AMENDMENT XVIII
Passed by Congress December 18, 1917. Ratified January 16, 1919. Repealed by amendment 21.
Section 1.
After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited.
Section 2.
The Congress and the several States shall have concurrent power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
Section 3.
This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of the several States, as provided in the Constitution, within seven years from the date of the submission hereof to the States by the Congress.


AMENDMENT XIX
Passed by Congress June 4, 1919. Ratified August 18, 1920.
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


AMENDMENT XX
Passed by Congress March 2, 1932. Ratified January 23, 1933.
Note: Article I, section 4, of the Constitution was modified by section 2 of this amendment. In addition, a portion of the 12th amendment was superseded by section 3.
Section 1.
The terms of the President and the Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January, and the terms of Senators and Representatives at noon on the 3rd day of January, of the years in which such terms would have ended if this article had not been ratified; and the terms of their successors shall then begin.
Section 2.
The Congress shall assemble at least once in every year, and such meeting shall begin at noon on the 3d day of January, unless they shall by law appoint a different day.
Section 3.
If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.
Section 4.
The Congress may by law provide for the case of the death of any of the persons from whom the House of Representatives may choose a President whenever the right of choice shall have devolved upon them, and for the case of the death of any of the persons from whom the Senate may choose a Vice President whenever the right of choice shall have devolved upon them.
Section 5.
Sections 1 and 2 shall take effect on the 15th day of October following the ratification of this article.
Section 6.
This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within seven years from the date of its submission.

AMENDMENT XXI
Passed by Congress February 20, 1933. Ratified December 5, 1933.
Section 1.
The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.
Section 2.
The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or Possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.
Section 3.
This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by conventions in the several States, as provided in the Constitution, within seven years from the date of the submission hereof to the States by the Congress.

AMENDMENT XXII
Passed by Congress March 21, 1947. Ratified February 27, 1951.
Section 1.
No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more than once. But this Article shall not apply to any person holding the office of President when this Article was proposed by Congress, and shall not prevent any person who may be holding the office of President, or acting as President, during the term within which this Article becomes operative from holding the office of President or acting as President during the remainder of such term.
Section 2.
This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within seven years from the date of its submission to the States by the Congress.

AMENDMENT XXIII
Passed by Congress June 16, 1960. Ratified March 29, 1961.
Section 1.
The District constituting the seat of Government of the United States shall appoint in such manner as Congress may direct:
A number of electors of President and Vice President equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives in Congress to which the District would be entitled if it were a State, but in no event more than the least populous State; they shall be in addition to those appointed by the States, but they shall be considered, for the purposes of the election of President and Vice President, to be electors appointed by a State; and they shall meet in the District and perform such duties as provided by the twelfth article of amendment.
Section 2.
The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


AMENDMENT XXIV
Passed by Congress August 27, 1962. Ratified January 23, 1964.
Section 1.
The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay poll tax or other tax.
Section 2.
The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

AMENDMENT XXV
Passed by Congress July 6, 1965. Ratified February 10, 1967.
Note: Article II, section 1, of the Constitution was affected by the 25th amendment.
Section 1.
In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President.
Section 2.
Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.
Section 3.
Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President.
Section 4.
Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

AMENDMENT XXVI
Passed by Congress March 23, 1971. Ratified July 1, 1971.
Note: Amendment 14, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by section 1 of the 26th amendment.
Section 1.
The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.
Section 2.
The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

AMENDMENT XXVII
Originally proposed Sept. 25, 1789. Ratified May 7, 1992.
No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of representatives shall have intervened.

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THEWELSHM said:

by the way Jeff the constitution was made up of 19 pages.:rock::rock: Why cant the asshole politions put all bills in 19 or less pages

thewelshm

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HDVIPER said:

I own a gun, and I'm a firm believer in the 2nd ammendment and your right to conceal carry. I repect your rights, as i hope you respect mine. But, sadly, this is about mass murder and about weapons that were meant for a battle field. I am not (nor is this President) talking about weapons to protect your family from an intruder or weapons used for hunting.

We could put any number of things under a microscope, but that won't add any value to this discussion. This is about Stockton (in 89), Columbine, Aurora, Newtown, etc... Mass murder, assault weapons, large magazines, weapons of mass destruction.

They are equally horrible...

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phxpoolguy said:

And the guntoting, close-minded, no way we need more laws, 30 shot clip firing nuts start falling out of the trees. How in the hell can anybody argue with better laws regarding who can buy a gun? Guns will always be available, but maybe it would make it harder for at least one idiot to not buy something that can kill multiple people. you can make analogies all you want about how you can still kill with a knife or car, but I've never seen a knife or car travel at 800mph or whatever a bullet travels. I'd take my chances fighting a dude with a knife vs a 30 round clip of bullets.

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RAMDUDE said:

22-250 round is close to 3000 mph. At 4350 FPS.

I agree with a better background check to keep guns out of the hands of mental Ill people.

Maybe some sort of card when buying a gun you have to show and scan it.

But to try and limit on which guns people can own is wrong, and for the rounds that a mag can hold, I don't agree 7 rounds is good or 20. Should be whatever. 1 bullet can kill someone can blame it on 10 or more.

I own guns, I support the right to own guns. I just put in paperwork for my remington 870 express, class 2 SBS short barrel shotgun on a form 4. yes I do mine all legal. barrel will be 11 7/8 not 18 1/2 I think it's dumb what I have to go through for cutting a barrel down, but I do things by the books.

Paper work through FBI & ATF will take about 10 months cause of this sandy hook stuff and people buying so many guns.

I'll say to everyone on here as I do everyone else.

Antigun people and people who believe mags should be 7 or less.

If a Guy or Guys on PCP break into your home, and try to rape your kids or wife. Good luck calling the cops and waiting for 5-7 minutes while you have a mad man in your house. You will wish you had a gun or had more rounds if 5 or 6 do not take him down.

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HOT RAM said:

:rock:

Background checks are pretty thorough right now.What is being proposed will violate the confidentiality protections for the individual (patient) in favor of divulging any and all "suspicious dialog" to "authorities" in favor of the masses.In America,that has NEVER been what we are about.We value individual protections above all else for in doing so we guarantee it for the masses.

I see only a little wrong with requiring all gun sales (even private sales) to be run through a licensed FFL dealer or maybe in requiring an individual to call in for a transfer authorization like a dealer must do now (in VA we have instant checks).Of course that will only burden the law-abiding as criminals will not comply anyway.

Still waiting on my tax stamps for two .22 suppressors and it has been nearly 6 months.

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RAMDUDE said:

I know class 3 right now sucks.

I do agree tho. if you open the door for to much background,then they will try to deem everyone unfit to own guns.

You have a walther P22 ? I know people love suppressors on them

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