Prof said:
Thanks!
Good to know Prof. Some encouraging news is great.
I am not expecting unrealistic gains, just more than the gains I have been seeing at our track recently.
Last edited:
Tuning my Vec III and PBJ
- Thread starter Speed Racer
- Start date
Thanks!
Good to know Prof. Some encouraging news is great.
I am not expecting unrealistic gains, just more than the gains I have been seeing at our track recently.
Speed Racer said:
I'm a little confused. The Blower flash leaves the timing as stock. I don't understand why the PCM flash would make a difference. I also would like a little more info on what Roe said about the "other QC" and the dyno not being right. If the blower flash is not the right way to go and there is some information that helps prove one way or the other would be helpful.
FlyingLow said:
Now we are getting somewhere. This is perhaps the most useful thread (for me) I have seen in quite a while.
rottenronnie said:
The other thing to think about is dynos. Really hard to compare numbers from one truck to another and from one dyno to another. In 90 minutes of work Roe gained me about 75 RWHP and TRQ from my last dyno. However I was told the other dyno shows about 75 RWHP low. Dynos should be used as a tool for before and after gains/losses. Also max HP gain sometimes does not show the full gain of a mod. The stage 2 flash is a great example of that. Nets little Max RWHP and TRQ but gives a lot of power in the lower power band. Some FI can do the same. The dyno graph looks like a table top instead of a constant rise.
Speed Racer
Full Access Member
Margaritas
Dang, see I never think of this stuff. You're right! Maybe next time.
Perry
WAZZSUP said:
Dang, see I never think of this stuff. You're right! Maybe next time.
Perry
Rottenronnie,
You should have no problem installing the blower and popping in the Roe cards. I think Sean has to be a bit conservative on the timing curves because of the differences in fuel, elevation, and climate...etc. On this truck it was by far the best first pull air fuel curve I have seen on a Roe blower package. As I said before, every vehicle is different....one truck may take 22 degrees of timing on washer solvent and that same truck may take 26 degrees of timing on a 60/40 split of water/meth. Then you could try that on the next truck and get 20 and 24 degrees with the same model year, engine, and mods...you just don't know.
As far as the flash and the timing...I am assuming the only thing altered is the torque management, shift points, and line pressures. The vec3 is changing the fuel and timing. I know the vec3 changes the transition from vaccum to boost from open to closed loop for 1.5 seconds to get rid of the lean spike on WOT tip in. It also changes the IAT offset to get rid of the iat temp issues....WOT over 100 degree iat adds fuel and pulls timing from the stock PCM...the 2000 and up vipers had some issues with the vec 2 on hot days at WOT.
Next, every dyno is different (period). Keep in mind that a dyno is for tuning only....numbers are for bragging rights. Your MPH at the track tells you if you are making good usable power. A killer torque curve with a fast steady hp ramp will be fast at the track over a high short lived peaky hp curve and no torque. I have made a lot of small camshaft cars make fools out of big cam cars on the street....it is all in the torque curve and that is what you 5000+ plus pound guys need.
Anyway, dynojet and mustang dynos will vary alot...my load varying dynojet reads lower than a standard dynojet because of my extra load that I induce. You are looking for a figure and trying to improve on it...that is why I make a baseline pull at a certain temp (coolant and iat) before I start tuning. Every pull after that is as close to that as possible so you will be able to see what if any gains were made.
Hopefully that will help out on some of the last comments on the thread...
See ya,
Joe
You should have no problem installing the blower and popping in the Roe cards. I think Sean has to be a bit conservative on the timing curves because of the differences in fuel, elevation, and climate...etc. On this truck it was by far the best first pull air fuel curve I have seen on a Roe blower package. As I said before, every vehicle is different....one truck may take 22 degrees of timing on washer solvent and that same truck may take 26 degrees of timing on a 60/40 split of water/meth. Then you could try that on the next truck and get 20 and 24 degrees with the same model year, engine, and mods...you just don't know.
As far as the flash and the timing...I am assuming the only thing altered is the torque management, shift points, and line pressures. The vec3 is changing the fuel and timing. I know the vec3 changes the transition from vaccum to boost from open to closed loop for 1.5 seconds to get rid of the lean spike on WOT tip in. It also changes the IAT offset to get rid of the iat temp issues....WOT over 100 degree iat adds fuel and pulls timing from the stock PCM...the 2000 and up vipers had some issues with the vec 2 on hot days at WOT.
Next, every dyno is different (period). Keep in mind that a dyno is for tuning only....numbers are for bragging rights. Your MPH at the track tells you if you are making good usable power. A killer torque curve with a fast steady hp ramp will be fast at the track over a high short lived peaky hp curve and no torque. I have made a lot of small camshaft cars make fools out of big cam cars on the street....it is all in the torque curve and that is what you 5000+ plus pound guys need.
Anyway, dynojet and mustang dynos will vary alot...my load varying dynojet reads lower than a standard dynojet because of my extra load that I induce. You are looking for a figure and trying to improve on it...that is why I make a baseline pull at a certain temp (coolant and iat) before I start tuning. Every pull after that is as close to that as possible so you will be able to see what if any gains were made.
Hopefully that will help out on some of the last comments on the thread...
See ya,
Joe
Speed Racer
Full Access Member
reply about tuning
Thanks for the posts guys.
Well to answer the questions the dyno was a Mustang and it was in Paragould, AR. If you look at some of my old posts in the dyno section you can see I went from 380ish to 650ish HP with the install of s/c, methanol, headers/exhausts, pcm, and vec, thermostat, plugs and wires. I was overjoyed with this but it appeared the numbers were unrealistic. Joe's dyno work is much closer to what the guys here achieve with the same kind of mods. I am pleased with what we got now. When I go to rebuild my tranny and engine I know where Im going. St Louis is only 4.5 hours away at 10mpg or a lot less for a lot more gas.
I dont know what Roe is going to do. I havent received a reply from Sean Roe yet. Hopefully as I have a spare PCM maybe I can swap out something for a changed reflash?!?
FlyingLow: PCM: Unit was sent from Roe to B&G?!? and then to me. It has a stage II flash on it which I was told also has tranny management (which we believe is the problem). I believe Joe said that the Mopar version does not have tranny management on it (for q/c guys that are thinking of doing this you might want to check with MoParConnection)
Rottenronnie: tuning is very important. I mean Sean sent me a generic tune that was okay, but to get the most from the s/c unit and the peripherals you need a finetuner (like PBJ). As far as I could tell I got like 100 - 120 hp from the mods (by just installing them) and as Joe said about 45 from his work tuning. Also, as far as I can tell there aren't many tuners with Joe's expertise around anywhere, that's why many forum users have him do their work.
Kyle's SRT10: Whenever you want 'bro maybe we can get together with Jeff and Randy and make a group of it. Memphis Dragstrip tuning nite is on Thursdays and they open at 5pm. George Ray's is on Sun and opens at 1:00pm. Perhaps you have a favorite strip around Searcy? Just let me know would love to get us truck hotrodders together.
Hope this answers a few questions. I am not a mechanic, techie, but, I am trying to be an informed modder. I was pleased with Sean's equipment as it stood but, I am more pleased now with Joe's work and I will be definately adding some more work to Joe's plate as soon as I can.
Now I got to get these durn Caltracs on....
Perry
Thanks for the posts guys.
Well to answer the questions the dyno was a Mustang and it was in Paragould, AR. If you look at some of my old posts in the dyno section you can see I went from 380ish to 650ish HP with the install of s/c, methanol, headers/exhausts, pcm, and vec, thermostat, plugs and wires. I was overjoyed with this but it appeared the numbers were unrealistic. Joe's dyno work is much closer to what the guys here achieve with the same kind of mods. I am pleased with what we got now. When I go to rebuild my tranny and engine I know where Im going. St Louis is only 4.5 hours away at 10mpg or a lot less for a lot more gas.
I dont know what Roe is going to do. I havent received a reply from Sean Roe yet. Hopefully as I have a spare PCM maybe I can swap out something for a changed reflash?!?
FlyingLow: PCM: Unit was sent from Roe to B&G?!? and then to me. It has a stage II flash on it which I was told also has tranny management (which we believe is the problem). I believe Joe said that the Mopar version does not have tranny management on it (for q/c guys that are thinking of doing this you might want to check with MoParConnection)
Rottenronnie: tuning is very important. I mean Sean sent me a generic tune that was okay, but to get the most from the s/c unit and the peripherals you need a finetuner (like PBJ). As far as I could tell I got like 100 - 120 hp from the mods (by just installing them) and as Joe said about 45 from his work tuning. Also, as far as I can tell there aren't many tuners with Joe's expertise around anywhere, that's why many forum users have him do their work.
Kyle's SRT10: Whenever you want 'bro maybe we can get together with Jeff and Randy and make a group of it. Memphis Dragstrip tuning nite is on Thursdays and they open at 5pm. George Ray's is on Sun and opens at 1:00pm. Perhaps you have a favorite strip around Searcy? Just let me know would love to get us truck hotrodders together.
Hope this answers a few questions. I am not a mechanic, techie, but, I am trying to be an informed modder. I was pleased with Sean's equipment as it stood but, I am more pleased now with Joe's work and I will be definately adding some more work to Joe's plate as soon as I can.
Now I got to get these durn Caltracs on....
Perry
Deibs
Full Access Member
rottenronnie said:
Hey Ron,
That was a lot of fun on Friday! I know i was frankly disheartened by the times i was posting... a 13.558 @ 103.66mph. Yeah you'd think that it should be a lot better but again the conditions were less to be desired. Also the 4-5mph difference could be due to conditions and my added weight the 06 is one heavy beast.
I would like to come down and run again, with more time.. not so dammed rushed. I drove the 2 hours to get there, got my tech done and then went straight to the drag strip. The heat soak in my engine and tranny must have been rediculous!!!!! I never did let it cool down properly before a pass, as i looked over my slips there was at best a 20 min difference in time between passes.
As for the tuning issue.. i know i just don't feel safe with the tranny, when i first put the Roe sytem on I was severely disapointed.. 15K and that's all i got?? But once you realize how "light" of a tune it actually is you don't feel too bad as there's so much room to grow! Come next summer once my tranny and rear-end are in i'll be looking to bump that HP up big time.
If you have some time on Friday you should head this way and we'll go up towards Leduc,, Bud Park is much better at only 2200FT vs the 5750FT in Calgary,
I do have another 05 QC coming with me (StageII, Catless mids, Borla) so it's basically the same truck, even the same paint. We are gonna head up a lot earlier in the day so we can get some time to cool down, i'll also have my laptop and VECIII software working, with a cable in the cab so i can do some logging. I wont be touching the tune as i haven't a damn clue but it will be nice to see what the logs turn out.Shane
Rice Eater
Full Access Member
I heard that Joe was a pretty darn good guy! Sounds like you had fun! Hows the truck feel!?
Rice Eater
Full Access Member
PBJ said:Hey guys,
I have a '06 at the shop now that is getting, pistons, rods, and a different pulley, so hopefully we will make enough power to show up some of the Paxton guys
Joe
I can't wait to see what kind of #'s the 06 puts down w/ the upgraded internals.....is the pistons and rods the only things you have to do if you want to safely run more boost #'s?? Make us proud!
Deibs said:Hey Ron,
That was a lot of fun on Friday! I know i was frankly disheartened by the times i was posting... a 13.558 @ 103.66mph. Yeah you'd think that it should be a lot better but again the conditions were less to be desired. Also the 4-5mph difference could be due to conditions and my added weight the 06 is one heavy beast.
I would like to come down and run again, with more time.. not so dammed rushed. I drove the 2 hours to get there, got my tech done and then went straight to the drag strip. The heat soak in my engine and tranny must have been rediculous!!!!! I never did let it cool down properly before a pass, as i looked over my slips there was at best a 20 min difference in time between passes.
As for the tuning issue.. i know i just don't feel safe with the tranny, when i first put the Roe sytem on I was severely disapointed.. 15K and that's all i got?? But once you realize how "light" of a tune it actually is you don't feel too bad as there's so much room to grow! Come next summer once my tranny and rear-end are in i'll be looking to bump that HP up big time.
If you have some time on Friday you should head this way and we'll go up towards Leduc,, Bud Park is much better at only 2200FT vs the 5750FT in Calgary,
Shane
Yup,
Tuning is important for sure.
I really shouldn't be beating up on a Paxton SRT-10 QC (2 out of 3 races) with my very lightly modded QC.
I just haven't seen very good results on ANY supercharged vehicles around here Dodge, Ford, Chev or ?
I will try and assist on Friday with the laptop; don't forget to charge the laptop battery this time, or bring an inverter and charge it on the drive up!
C Ya @ Bud Park Friday
Ron
Speed Racer
Full Access Member
Feel me
Truck feels real good Rice except for the 2k rpm thing. I just got the caltracs on and love the feel. Real tight ride. I'm real happy so far. Mybe Sean can get the thing figured out for me.
Perry
Rice Eater said:
Truck feels real good Rice except for the 2k rpm thing. I just got the caltracs on and love the feel. Real tight ride. I'm real happy so far. Mybe Sean can get the thing figured out for me.
Perry
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