AUSCHWITZ

[Django]

It is evil for any group of people to refuse to love others based on religion, social status or sexuality. Moreover, it is evil to ignore the principles of stewardship to all of creation.... It is evil to kill for no reason.

When you are held to the standard of loving one another as God has loved us, all other standards become unneccesary.

But, "To everything there is a season and a time to every purpose under heaven."

So, "Choose ye, this day, whom ye shall serve...." (Biblical quote)

"It may be the devil or it may be the Lord,
But yer gonna have to serve somebody..." Bob Dylan

Let's not kid ourselves with fancy rhetorical arguments and lofty words. We know who the bad guys are...and some of them are us......

D

 

[supercar1of1]

I fear slippery slopes (I hate that word ) but I also recognize the need to be realistic and pragmatic.

Slippery slopes which tread on the rights that make this country what it is, need to be approached very carefully, and if deemed necessary, have built-in sunsets, to be sure that the people believe the continuing suspension of rights is appropriate.

Very interesting and stimulating discussion. Thanks everyone for being open and tolerant of each others opinions.

My having been on the inside, you are correct in fearing the slippery slope, it's just that we have never faced the level of no rules,no conscience,
evil we now face and some latitude is needed in the rules.
If you look back at history about half the population has always been pacifists
that just can't seem to recognize evil and deal with it.

My opinion is that any law which might infringe or affect an innocent should have a sunset provision.

 

[Prof]

Notes to self:

Have a beer with Supercar1of1.
Smoke a Don Pepin with Django.

 

[supercar1of1]

Notes to self:

Have a beer with Supercar1of1.
Smoke a Don Pepin with Django.

GOLDEN GRAIN!

 

[OCBob]

My opinion is that any law which might infringe or affect an innocent should have a sunset provision.

First of all, this is in no way a defense of any terrorists, anywhere. Let me just make that plain and get it out of the way.

Our government has taken advantage of the fear created by the attacks of 9/11. They have found ways to curtail our rights and to tear little pieces out of the Constitution wherever they see fit. We have lost more of our rights over the last 7 years than at anytime in history.

We will not get these rights back, I'll bet you dollars to dirt on that. Once the government taketh, they don't giveth back.

They are using the same tactic in regards to illegal immigration. More and more laws find their way onto the books and our freedom is slowly being chipped away. Scared citizens give up their rights voluntarily. What a shame, considering how many have given so much in order to establish those very rights.

It wasn't that long ago that we as a nation deplored despots around the globe that insisted that their citizens carry and produce their papers and explain their movements and actions whenever prodded. We are quickly becoming that nation, if we haven't already.

The way I see it, we are allowing the terrorists of the world to win by default. The very thing that they want to take from us, our freedom, is being sacrificed in order to be protected from them. Pretty sad, actually.

 

[Prof]

Hard to argue with your comments...

Sad.

 

[Wifey]

Extremism is always problematic.

Maybe Red Coats is a little stretch...but glad you got the point Scott. And I too, love Attila, John. He was so decisive!

Tolerance and moderation seem to be the route that in the end wins. I just keep thinking that if the shoe were on the other foot, I might very well become the worst of the worst in trying to win back the freedoms and constitutional guarantees that this country was founded upon.

I have had Muslim students, Christan students, Jewish students that my well be our leaders in this country in the future...and if that happens, rest assured we will be in great hands, the youth of this country is going to be a great generation. I will have been proud to be a small part of their growth...as have most of you...they will do us proud!

The youth of this country scares the crap outta me.

 

[JRSVIPR]

The youth of this country scares the crap outta me.

You mean like the 14 yr. old girl that hit her mother in the head with a hammer.WTF is wrong with these kids?

 

[Wifey]

You mean like the 14 yr. old girl that hit her mother in the head with a hammer.WTF is wrong with these kids?

I dunno, but they are gonna run our country And some of them look like they should be in a fricken CIRCUS

Maybe it's video games :dontknow:

 

[supercar1of1]

First of all, this is in no way a defense of any terrorists, anywhere. Let me just make that plain and get it out of the way.

Our government has taken advantage of the fear created by the attacks of 9/11. They have found ways to curtail our rights and to tear little pieces out of the Constitution wherever they see fit. We have lost more of our rights over the last 7 years than at anytime in history.

We will not get these rights back, I'll bet you dollars to dirt on that. Once the government taketh, they don't giveth back.

They are using the same tactic in regards to illegal immigration. More and more laws find their way onto the books and our freedom is slowly being chipped away. Scared citizens give up their rights voluntarily. What a shame, considering how many have given so much in order to establish those very rights.

It wasn't that long ago that we as a nation deplored despots around the globe that insisted that their citizens carry and produce their papers and explain their movements and actions whenever prodded. We are quickly becoming that nation, if we haven't already.

The way I see it, we are allowing the terrorists of the world to win by default. The very thing that they want to take from us, our freedom, is being sacrificed in order to be protected from them. Pretty sad, actually.

If having valid I.D. is not acceptable, what method would you recommend

be used to exclude or detain suspects that have crossed the threshold of

reasonable suspicion?

 

[OCBob]

If having valid I.D. is not acceptable, what method would you recommend

be used to exclude or detain suspects that have crossed the threshold of

reasonable suspicion?

There's the rub right there. Just what constitutes reasonable suspicion, and who exactly gets to determine that?

We no longer need judges to sign warrants in this country. We don't need to charge people to detain them.

As I said, and I will stand by, we are losing our rights at an unparalleled rate. The whole thing reminds me of this:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

I have been pulled over or otherwise detained numerous times and asked to produce ID. And it's not that I was a suspect in any crime, they just wanted to know who I was. That just doesn't seem very American to me. "Vere are your paperz"

Like I said before, we are playing right into their hands, them being the terrorists. They have scared us so bad we are willing to give back what our brave forefathers fought so hard to gain.

 

[Prof]

Along the lines that this thread has taken...the Patriot Act may become the most threatening document ever drafted by any administration. It, more than any other document, attacks the essence of our constitutional freedoms. President Bush has pushed for it to become permanent. It would be a terrible decision to do so.

But the ID issue is one that I can tolerate, but it is also problematic. I carry a FOID (Firearms Owner Identification Card (Illinois)); a drivers license, a voter registration card...I think that one of the ways that we could manage several issues at the same time would be with some sort of national identification card...maybe combined with a common medical information data base...I know that some will object strongly, but I do think that we will come to that. Let's try to make some lemonade out of the lemon and make the card serve several purposes.

Yeah, I know they are probably going to take my "Flaming Liberal" card away.

 

[GriffsSRT]

WOw it is way to early to have read this one! Alot of good points. A lot which I agree and disagree with. And a whole lot of big words I don't even understand

 

[OCBob]

Well Roy, I wouldn't take away your flaming liberal status for supporting national ID cards that would contain all your information on a magnetic strip, including medical information, criminal information, credit information, and any other information that the government sees fit to put on there, like political leanings, etc..

In fact, it sounds very leftist to me, though I'm not sure if I would call it national socialism or communism.

We should be ashamed that we are becoming the very thing that we spent most of the 20th century fighting against. And we should be scared, terrorists have nothing on our government when it comes to the damage they can do to our country and our way of life.

I honestly believe that the framers would be beside themselves if they could see what their creation has become.

 

[Ram From Hell]

And a whole lot of big words I don't even understand

That could be improved with a little effort.

There are innumerable ways in which efforts to protect us as a nation will bode poorly for our civil liberties and disdain for us from abroad, and few that will auger well for our future. A balance of action and restraint in the context of current conditions would be the pragmatic approach. Unfortunately we cannot count on this due to the presence of fear and ignorance in varying degrees of those we have elected (none are immune, as they're humans after all).

Much depends on how the pendulum swings. This nation seems to tend to polarize and often times overreact to a situation, but somehow finds a way back toward center. So if we must meet extremes with extremes, I must hope that there is a future of relative peace before us that finds it no longer necessary.

FWIW, I have begun to despise the notion of evil, or people who are evil. This kind of thinking is not logical, and prevents one from seeing things for what they are. Nay, it encourages people to fanatically believe them to be something that they are not. Let's be honest, a ne'er-do-well deity does not come along and bonk someone over the head with an "evil stick" and create a Hitler or Pol Pot. These were human beings with psychological makeups as a combination of genetics and their environment that made them what they were. They had motivations and desires just like the rest of us, but lacked the traits that would have otherwise prevented them from committing the atrocities we know them for. They were not evil, they were just plain very bad people.

I reiterate that if we are to have any chance of a positive outcome, we are going to have to address the underlying motivations of those who mean us harm. We don't stand a chance if fail to recognize and defuse these issues more often than just reacting to what happens when we don't.

 

[Ram From Hell]

I honestly believe that the framers would be beside themselves if they could see what their creation has become.

Most framers I've met barely give a shit between six packs and paychecks. Who are you talking about here?

 

[OCBob]

And I would also like to point out that it isn't only our federal government that has spread it's wings in order to gain power over it's minions.

I just read a news article earlier this week from Wisconsin. A bar owner there was told that her liquour license would not be renewed unless she put up a sign stating "no colors" allowed. Now, how is it that a government agency has the right to tell a business owner how to do business and whom they can do business with? Just doesn't quite sound right to me. Just imagine if that sign said "no coloreds" instead.

This sort of gets me back on track with where this thread started in respects to profiling. It is perfectly legal in this country for the police to profile, as long as you are a white male of some sort. They can stop me anytime they wish, just to check my papers as it were and to try to glean some information about me. If I were a minority I would have them by the balls, and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would be on all the tv stations talking about how wrong it is.

And just for the record, I believe that profiling is wrong. It leads to harrassment based on individual officers and officials own prejudices. We have gone from assumption of innocence to presumption of guilt in this country, based on nothing but appearances.

How many million Muslims live in this country? How many are truly a threat to our way of life? A very small percentage I am quite sure.

Now how many congressmen are in this country? And how many of those are truly a threat to our way of life? I my opinion the percentage here is probably higher.

And something else to think about. You may be happy with this president, so you don't feel threatened by his increased power. But somewhere down the road a president is going to come along that you fear and despise, and he or she will have this level of power as well.

The fear factor is at work in this country and it is strong. Ever notice how a lot of new laws are directed at those that no one will stand up and defend? People like child molestors. I mean, who in their right mind is going to defend them? Problem is, next year it will apply to everyone busted with drugs. Then the year after, anyone that drives. A few years down the road and everyone is effected.

And if you think I am off base on that one, the FBI has already proposed a national DNA database, with everyone's DNA included. This all started with DNA being taken from sex offenders. Our government is very good indeed at snatching power at every opportunity, we need to be careful.

And let me just say that I am not defending child predators either. In fact, I am probably among the last people that any of them would want to cross paths with. If someone ever hurt my children, well let's just say that I don't call 911.

 

[OCBob]

Most framers I've met barely give a shit between six packs and paychecks. Who are you talking about here?

hehehehehe. That might explain why nothing is square in my house LOL.

 

[Prof]

hehehehehe. That might explain why nothing is square in my house LOL.

Not to digress, but I seriously need one of those framers to help me get my wine cellar off the "to do" list...

Concur, 'bad people' is the operative term. It's a cop out to term them 'evil'.