New Fuel Standards

[HDVIPER]

Subscribed, interesting debate...

 

[SlvrSnake]

I find this whole thing frustrating but to me this whole electric car push is extremely pre-mature and not thought out enough. Batterys pose a danger like gasoline does in that there can be an explosion. However, batteries contain heavy metals and acid. How is that good for the environment?

If the car is not a Hybrid and has to be plugged into the grid, well that does nothing. Most of our power is generated by coal fired plants that create a Carbon footprint. Going to be alot bigger with a large electircal demand. Also not being a Hybrid and requirinng an overnight charge. What happens when your power goes out? What happens when your batteries die on the way to work? Someone comes out and brings you an engine?

Something has to be done because oil is a finite resource so a new one has to be found. I am just not sure that electricity is the answer.

Come on scientists. Dream up some new kind of fuel to replace gasoline that we can make from cat piss or something.

 

[Prof]

I guess I'm screwed. I'm married to a lawyer. I must have misread one of her letters she wrote me when we first met: I though she wrote that she was a layer.....

Yup, I have a flaming liberal criminal defense daughter and her husband is also a lawyer...such is the penalty for a permissive upbringing...I accuse my daughter of getting criminals off on technicalities and she claims to be defending their constitutional rights!

Fortunately, she married a State Attorney and he claims that he wins all the arguments because he carries "heat"!

I too am an advocate of atomic energy...like DDT, it was dangerous when we first started using it, but I think we have learned and matured significantly...both could be solutions to huge issues, if we could just get past the politics.

I also have spent a lot of time near and on the ocean. I have a feeling that tidal movement will also be harnessed eventually, and that is a pretty green source of energy.

I do believe in the science that demonstrates the impact of C02 emissions over the past 150 years...it is stark and terrifying. Joe asks "at what cost"...and my retort is that there are some things that are beyond cost, and our environment meets that criteria in my mind. Some of what is happening is not reversible, and that obviates the cost issue in my mind.

In the past two years the estimates of terrible outcomes from global warming have been heightened...but as several of you have said it is very difficult to separate the science from the partisan politics. I guess it is just my nature to take the cautious course when dealing with the air we breath, and the environment in which my grand kids will live.

 

[Prof]

I find this whole thing frustrating but to me this whole electric car push is extremely pre-mature and not thought out enough. Batterys pose a danger like gasoline does in that there can be an explosion. However, batteries contain heavy metals and acid. How is that good for the environment?

If the car is not a Hybrid and has to be plugged into the grid, well that does nothing. Most of our power is generated by coal fired plants that create a Carbon footprint. Going to be alot bigger with a large electircal demand. Also not being a Hybrid and requirinng an overnight charge. What happens when your power goes out? What happens when your batteries die on the way to work? Someone comes out and brings you an engine?

Something has to be done because oil is a finite resource so a new one has to be found. I am just not sure that electricity is the answer.

Come on scientists. Dream up some new kind of fuel to replace gasoline that we can make from cat piss or something.

Most of the electric vehicles that are being developed for mass production have a gasoline (or diesel in Volvo's case) engine as a back up.

 

[Scrambler1]

Roy any comments on the pollution trade off between cars burning gas and factories making/recycling/destroying batteries??

Also hybrids are most effective at saving gas and pollution in large cities where people sit and inch along in traffic for extended periods of time. The hybrid aspect doesn't come into play when driving 80mph down the interstate. Again I think the benefits are overstated when applied to the population as a whole and I'm FAR from convinced that dealing with all of the batteries is any greener than a gas car that gets over 25mpg and lasts for 150k miles+. I think, like the grocery bags, we are just moving a problem into a different, less understood area.

 

[Prof]

Batteries are a real enigma...I can only echo what my scientist wife says about them..."Batteries are a lesser evil than continuing what we are doing." As a scientist she believes that technology quantum leaps come from investment in the technology...she was fully aware of the problems with the Prius when she purchased it...but without any early adopters the technology issues will never be addressed and resolved.

Does that make sense to others? It does to me, but then she is my meal ticket and I often just say "Yes Dear." I have learned that from all of my wives.

 

[NorCal SRT-10]

The Tesla Roadster is a swweeet looking car. I saw one in Los Angeles, I believe they have a dealer store in the Los Angeles area. The base price is $109,000.00 plus

We have a bunch of these at work. A lot of the higher earning engineers bought them. These cars look really cool... for a go cart. They are tiny and super low to the ground. One of my work buddies actually owns one but she doesn't like driving it too much. She is actually going to bring it by soon because she bet me that I COULD fit in it. I told her I can't, but we'll see. If I actually squeeze my fat ass in there and drive it I'll try to take some pics and give you guys a run down on how the ride was. I'm sure it's not comfortable.

I have driven other electric cars before here at work and Prof is right, they have insane torque right off the bat and get up to high speeds really quick. Of course the downside is how short the energy lasts.

 

[NorCal SRT-10]

Electric cars can be cool.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB8xCAY-j0k

 

[black pearl]

Through 2016, new CAFE standards will take the equivalent of 177 million cars off the road -- or shut down 194 coal plants.

What is the evidence for these numbers? Are these numbers just pulled out of the air? Also shouldn’t the car customers decide on what standards they want instead of them being forced upon them :dontknow: Just asking a few questions Roy since I highly value your input

 

[Prof]

http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/05/the_new_standard_fleshing_out_the_details.php

Well in a perfect world yes we would all choose what we want to happen...but then we would have no speed limits, no seat belts, no safety standards, no taxes, no military etc. It is the purpose of government to do those things that the elected decision makers feel is appropriate for the welfare of the masses.

 

[WOT]

...It is the purpose of government to do those things that the elected decision makers feel is appropriate for the welfare of the masses.

Agreed! This is one thing that you and I will both agree upon. I just don't necessarily believe that the public interest is what is at heart with most politicians. I actually have met a few as well as many political activists, and I can tell you this: their motivation is purely about power. And, as such, to stay in power it typically takes gobs of money. So, it seems that they must yield to special interest lobbyists whether they be big oil, insurance companies, or the banking industry.

It is my personal opinion that the green movement in particular was invented by people that wanted to unseat the powerful oil companies' grip on today's politics. Villainize the oil companies, and you can get your own party in power without having to fight big oil dollar for dollar. It's actually quite ingenious if you think about it.

Peronally, I am just not going to jump on the greenie band wagon as of yet.

 

[WOT]

...Come on scientists. Dream up some new kind of fuel to replace gasoline that we can make from cat piss or something.

I am just curious, what is it that most people think is wrong with gasoline as a fuel?

 

[Prof]

Agreed! This is one thing that you and I will both agree upon. I just don't necessarily believe that the public interest is what is at heart with most politicians. I actually have met a few as well as many political activists, and I can tell you this: their motivation is purely about power. And, as such, to stay in power it typically takes gobs of money. So, it seems that they must yield to special interest lobbyists whether they be big oil, insurance companies, or the banking industry.

It is my personal opinion that the green movement in particular was invented by people that wanted to unseat the powerful oil companies' grip on today's politics. Villainize the oil companies, and you can get your own party in power without having to fight big oil dollar for dollar. It's actually quite ingenious if you think about it.

Peronally, I am just not going to jump on the greenie band wagon as of yet.

I can understand that opinion. There is lots of evidence to support the concept of incorrect motivation on the part of politicians. But the idea that the preponderance of scientific evidence that supports the green initiatives is politically motivated is a bit harsh. I think a more rational approach is that those scientists that oppose the concept of the dangers of global warming are the more politically oriented...as with the lawyer mentioned above.

In my mind objective observers are tough to find but here is one that I think presents clear and absolute evidence of the problem and its causes:

http://www.maui.net/~jstark/nasa.html

Here is a Web Crawler listing of places to find the facts about the issue:

http://www.webcrawler.com/webcrawle...bepersistence=true/_iceUrlFlag=7?_IceUrl=true

I am just curious, what is it that most people think is wrong with gasoline as a fuel?

You know, I don't think the root cause is gasoline or fossil fuels in general, it is the technology we have developed to employ it. Maybe we need a complete new approach to using fossil fuels...but the noxious by products of our current use of fossil fuel is killing the world as we know it. The evidence for that is clear as listed above.

Someone mentioned new energy sources above...that may well be what happens to correct the problem...tomorrow someone may discover a way to harness the power of flatulence, that is an inexhaustible natural occuring gas...eat more beans! But that or other discovery will only come from forcing the issue of changing what we are doing...and to come full circle...that is the role of government...identify the issues, force rethinking and development of solutions...and I am sure we would all prefer to have that development happen in the private sector rather than the government sector.

 

[Scrambler1]

http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/05/the_new_standard_fleshing_out_the_details.php

Well in a perfect world yes we would all choose what we want to happen...but then we would have no speed limits, no seat belts, no safety standards, no taxes, no military etc. It is the purpose of government to do those things that the elected decision makers feel is appropriate for the welfare of the masses.

I don't necessarily agree with that statement. The responsibilities of the fed govt are laid out in the constitution. Dictating what Americans should drive or eat or what companies can build is NOT the responsibility of the govt. Nor is it the responsibility of the govt to babysit the general population and make sure that nothing can hurt us or shorten our lives. Have you seen the Senate's latest idea?? Taxing sugar... things like soft drinks, energy drinks, etc because apparently soft drinks are why Americans are fat. It doesn't have anything to do with being lazy or eating too much:dontknow:

The economic ramifications of cap and trade, high fuel taxes, etc are huge. The vast majority of goods are shipped via truck in this country. That isn't going to change. What will this do to the cost of everything that we buy everyday? People who travel for work? Outrageous fuel prices will KILL the boating industry and in the end boating will only be available to the wealthy... that is if there are any left after all of the proposed taxes on everything under the sun are implemented, including taxes on health care benefits.

I'm not trying to derail the thread but I view this as just one more opportunity to take away personal freedoms and jack up taxes in the name of being "green." As mentioned above... politicians want POWER, not to act in our best interest. They use line of doing what's best for the welfare of the masses to strip a little more personal freedom from all of us. This is one more reason i don't believe in global warming... the science can be manipulated to meet a desired conclusion. Right now the desired conclusion is to induce a feeling of urgency where people throw everything else to the side in order to "save the planet." It really is a genius power grab.

 

[SlvrSnake]

I am just curious, what is it that most people think is wrong with gasoline as a fuel?

and Prof,

I realize that electric cars are mostly hybrids (engine with batteries). My concern is the batteries. They are simply a way of grandstanding to the public that there is no CO2 going into the atmosphere, when that is merely only part of the problem. Aside from emisions we need an alternative source to oil, period. Converting to electricity without using HydroElectric or Nuclear plants does nothing for CO2 emissions. As a matter of fact it will most likely make it worse since the majority of our power plants are coal fired.

Gasoline as fuel is not really the problem it is oil itself. Our entire lifetstyle depends upon Oil. From the computer you are typing on, to the toothpaste that you brush your teeth with, the clothes you wear, and yes, the food you eat. The products we use that are petroluem based are amazingly vast and in places that you will not likely think of right away. But we are dependent upon oil.

Hence the comment about about the cat piss to fuel was merely a jestful way of suggesting looking for alernatives. Such as butanol that can be created from bio-mass (i.e. landfill). Could use the existing infrastructure to transport and dispense it and gasoline vehicles can run on it. Just a thought. The other aspect of oil in industry is another problem unto itself but this thread is focused on fuel.

 

[pokeytemplar]

The big push isn't for the earth it is to cut dependence on foreign oil. I do think that big cities should look at how people move around in them. I have been stuck in ATL traffic for hours looking at all the SUV's stuffed with 1 person in them waiting to move 3 feet.

It doesn't matter what we drive it is how we drive it. If you drive a Prius balls to the wall you are lucky to get 17MPG. I can get 27 out of my wife's 05 Stratus driving normally and 35 if I drive like I "should". Hell I am already close to the new standards just by staying out of the "go" pedal.

The planet has been around for a while now and trust me it can take care of itself. When it has decided it has had enough it will wipe us out, and recycle us into the fuel of the future.

 

[WOT]

....Gasoline as fuel is not really the problem it is oil itself. Our entire lifetstyle depends upon Oil. From the computer you are typing on, to the toothpaste that you brush your teeth with, the clothes you wear, and yes, the food you eat. The products we use that are petroluem based are amazingly vast and in places that you will not likely think of right away. But we are dependent upon oil...The other aspect of oil in industry is another problem unto itself but this thread is focused on fuel.

So, next question: what is the problem with oil? (Btw, I am only posing these questions because I am curious as to what most people think is wrong with our current situation and how we got to where we are now. I have done some significant research into this area, so I have my own opinions, but I just want to know what others thoughts are).

Oh, and Prof, I haven't had a chance to read the articles that you posted links for. I'll respond once I've read them.

Thx.

 

[WOT]

Prius Report

...It doesn't matter what we drive it is how we drive it. If you drive a Prius balls to the wall you are lucky to get 17MPG...

Not true at all: I just got back from California (work trip), and I rented a Prius while I was there. I couldn't get away with it in my home state, but I figured I could get away with it in the green weeny state, and I guess curiosity got the best of me (incidentally, that's probably how alot of things start out in California)...

Anyway, I had the Prius for an entire week, and I decided to put it to a little test. For each of the tests, I made sure the Prius was fully warmed up (except for one, which was on purpose as noted) and made sure that the display showed the battery was charged to 8 bars so as to not skew the test result. Then, I reset the mileage computer, drove around and noted the results. I know that this is not a very controlled test as my distances and routes were not always the same, but I believe my results are somewhat accurate. For those that are interested, here are my results.

Day 1: 40 mile trip on the hwy from the airport to my hotel.
Speed: varied, but mostly 70 MPH on the highway. A/C on.
Average mileage: 43mpg

Day 2: 22 mile trip. I did this trip after I was done at the client site. I just purposely drove around trying to see how good of gas mileage I could possible get. I purposely drove extremely slow so that sometimes the engine wouldn't even have to start. I then would try to coast down hill and regenerate as much of the battery as I could. My goal was to minimize letting the engine start. I kept the A/C and all power accessories off. I then retraced my steps taking the same path back so as to negate any benefits that I might have seen from a net change in elevation, etc.
Distance: 22 miles
Speed: from 0 to about 37 mph, taking 4 minutes to get up to speed - cars honking and swerving around me. I just smiled and waved, lol.
Average mileage: 72 mpg

Day 3: Multiple short trips totaling about 25 miles. I started the Prius up cold, purposely did not let it warm up, and pushed it to the floor out of my hotel parking lot squealing around every corner. Did multiple 0-80 runs. Had A/C maxed out with windows down. Purposely did not coast before coming to a stop. Brakes were starting to stink. Drove it like the rental whore it was meant to be (without the flipping and burning it part).
Distance: 25 miles
Speed: from 0 to 90.
Average mileage: 32 mpg

Day 4: Multiple short trips totaling about 30 miles. I drove it as if it were my own, and the novelty had worn off. I just drove it normal and kept up with traffic. I didn't ever floor it, but I also did not speed up slower than the rest of traffic. I coasted when I could but didn't really pay attention. I just acted like it was a Ford Taurus.
Distance: 30 miles
Speed: highly varied city driving with speeds from stopped to 50 mph.
Average mileage: 51 mpg

Day 5: Had to drive it back to the airport: 40 miles or so, split into two 15 mile tests. The remaining 10 miles I stopped paying attention as I had completed my tests and was now trying to figure out where the rental car return lot was, etc. For these remaining tests, I decided to test out the absolute steady state highway mileage, since we know that the gasoline motor would have to stay running 100% of the time. For the first test, I got up to 80 mph and then reset the mileage computer. I kept it near 80 mph using my foot so that I could let it slow down to 78 or so up hills and then speed up to 81 or so down hills. I did this for 15 miles or so.
Distance: 15 miles
Speed: 80 mph
Average Mileage: 40 mpg.

Then, I drove 65 mph steady for 15 miles or so and reset the computer again.
Distance: 15 miles
Speed: 65 mph
Average mileage: 50 mpg.

I didn't fill it up before I brought it back. I just let them charge me for the gas (they just guesstimate +/- a gallon or so). Over the whole trip I went around 168 miles -- total gas 3 gallons.

 

[spdrcrj]

The govt now owns parts of gm and chrysler and is telling them what kinds of cars will be built, my SRT-10 will be the last "american" made vehicle I'll own. BMW M3 or Porsche GT3 for me next. Sad day.

 

[pokeytemplar]

Very thorough test. You do prove that driving style has more effect than the vehicle being "green". The Prius would work great for all the Big city people that live in the sub 50mph world. But for us country boys that drive 10-40+ miles on interstate or down back roads (60-80MPH) to get groceries and go to work it just doesn't make much sense. The government will take care of that problem next by forcing us country boys into the big city "to save the environment"...