Need some input. Round table discussion on the future of the Supercharger kits

[BriteCrawler]

2 cents incoming...

Page 6, and nobody has mentioned yet, that our trucks are trading at about 20-25k for most clean, well kept examples.

That puts the ROE TMS (at the old 6150) at around 1/4th of the cost of the truck, which I find to be perfectly acceptable for a mild power upgrade. Getting into turbo kits at 10k have you at almost half the price of the truck, and going for big power requires big dedication, and means you are probably matching the price of your truck, if not going higher. The Roe is by far the strongest performance upgrade for the price available.

That being said, Both Prof and Justin have raised very good points about the market of buyers and owners of these trucks (with no regard to what the car is doing, specifically looking at these trucks)... is that our community with the exception of a few members a month is fairly stable. With the saturation of FI choices on the market, and with those choices now reaching 1/2 the worth of the truck, most people who are going FI, have already gone FI, or won't consider it because of the rising cost.

I've bought from both Sean and Justin, and both are great businesses that support our community and I've had nothing but good experiences with both. It's hard to choose a vendor, and sometimes harder to choose what you want from your truck. In a perfect world, you guys would offer an infinite number of solutions, but we just can't do that.

I think your best choice is to stay on the rough side of the economy upgrade, because you guys have been doing it very well, and have several faithful customers with the product, and more who have been shopping it. Unfortunately, it's just not a giant market.

 

[JTS VENOM PERFORMANCE]

the roe is the best bang for the buck period, if i was sean i would stick with what works at the moment since there is no more r and d to do on it.

taking onthe sidewinder means more r and d again, and is it really worth it with the number of trucks on the road at the moment?

as far as turbos, they are a select few that can do them, they require more money and more dedication, since we have allready seen that people just are not happy with the amount of hp that the sc'r puts out, allways trying to get the last couple ponies. what do ya think will happen iwth endless turbos?

 

[Prof]

the roe is the best bang for the buck period, if i was sean i would stick with what works at the moment since there is no more r and d to do on it.

taking onthe sidewinder means more r and d again, and is it really worth it with the number of trucks on the road at the moment?

as far as turbos, they are a select few that can do them, they require more money and more dedication, since we have allready seen that people just are not happy with the amount of hp that the sc'r puts out, allways trying to get the last couple ponies. what do ya think will happen iwth endless turbos?

Just heard today that Detroit is depending on small turbos (twins) for most of the moderate go and efficiency in the near future. If they put their engineers on turbos, I think there will be a rapid decline in the cost and I am predicting quad turbo's for us speed freaks in the next two years.

I just see multiple turbos as a viable alternative...I can see four cylinder engines with twin turbos and that will open the door to four small turbos for the six cylinder engines. And maybe four medium turbos for the larger displacement engines.

Who will be the first to market with a four turbo bolt on? Laugh, but mark my words...

 

[blackviper]

Stinker, I think the Sidewinder kit is all ready proven. Not much if any R&D to do there. It would add all sorts of flexibility to a proven product. Can I say a 4 litre intercooled Whipple pushing 20+ lbs of boost should be good for a 1000+ RWHP on a built motor.

 

[DevilDawg3097]

:burnout: Two Words. COMPOUND BOOST.:burnout: On top of running on alcohol. Your half way there the r/d on the s/c is done throw in a single 65-77mm up there yeah go

 

[robjon96]

It seems you have the only top mount blower kit for our trucks, which means no direct competition! I would stick with it, and improve it to its peak performance in my honest opinion. Show everyone that you can exceed the limits.

Wish you the best of luck on whatever you end up picking

PS i have had my truck for a little over a year now, and everyday i try to find a way to purchase your blower kit its one of a kind.

 

[pokeytemplar]

Stinker, I think the Sidewinder kit is all ready proven. Not much if any R&D to do there. It would add all sorts of flexibility to a proven product. Can I say a 4 litre intercooled Whipple pushing 20+ lbs of boost should be good for a 1000+ RWHP on a built motor.

Or you can do the 5 or 8.3L TS as well. The 5L is good for ~1800HP and the 8.3L even more from down low. The side mount would allow greater flexibility since you aren't limited by the space between the fuel rails.

 

[bigike]

the 8.3 is a pro street blower! lol

 

[pokeytemplar]

the 8.3 is a pro street blower! lol

Hell yea! The TS's can produce just as much absurd unusable street power as anything else! :rock:

 

[bigike]

Hey F this, whey dont I go to powerdyne and pick you up a twin screw off at Ingersol Rand LPAC?!!!!

You want it with or without the 150 HP MOTOR that it comes with Hey they come with a after cooler also?

 

[C_Harris]

My last high performance combo was Kenne Bell 2.8L Blower on a 402 ci LSx engine. In a Hummer H2. Ran 13.6's at 6800 lbs... but the mileage drop was ridiculous. I was getting mileage in the 6.7 mpg range when driving normally. Personally, I would have loved to have switched to a turbo application just to not have to feed the horsepower (more fuel) consumed driving the blower. The turbo is just more efficient if done right. None of us are particularly cheap... but I felt I could live with 9.x mpg, but not 6.x mpg in my daily driver. I don't believe in having a garage/dyno queen.

From a purely business standpoint, I would expect a turbo system to be essentially the same for a Viper car and for a truck chassis. Sure, certain piping (maybe all of it) might be different, but the hard components should be the same. Less items to stock in that case and its for overlapping applications. It sucks to have to stock totally separate complete kits that only fit one chassis. Not to mention the fact that turbo piping is just welded up stainless pipe and pre bent sections. Assuming you have a good welder on staff you can produce piping kits cheaper than the CNC costs probably were.

I still like the big supercharger options, but I would recommend only stocking one and telling people there might be a wait time.

I would probably eventually get around to doing a small turbo kit on the SRT 10. I don't need a lot... just another 100 rwhp just in case I just look at the spare battery tray and think how nice it would be to put a small air to water heatexchange there... or maybe even enough room in the grill area for a straight up air to air intercooler. Plenty of room for a single turbo on the passenger side. I know well the advantages of the twins... but a decent sized single will meet my needs and the packaging would be relatively easy.

As for my old blower motor... it awaits a new chassis. No way I was giving it away with the H2 when I sold it. I just need to stuff it in something light so it can run low 10's and be "happy" again.

 

[Prof]

My last high performance combo was Kenne Bell 2.8L Blower on a 402 ci LSx engine. In a Hummer H2. Ran 13.6's at 6800 lbs... but the mileage drop was ridiculous. I was getting mileage in the 6.7 mpg range when driving normally. Personally, I would have loved to have switched to a turbo application just to not have to feed the horsepower (more fuel) consumed driving the blower. The turbo is just more efficient if done right. None of us are particularly cheap... but I felt I could live with 9.x mpg, but not 6.x mpg in my daily driver. I don't believe in having a garage/dyno queen.

From a purely business standpoint, I would expect a turbo system to be essentially the same for a Viper car and for a truck chassis. Sure, certain piping (maybe all of it) might be different, but the hard components should be the same. Less items to stock in that case and its for overlapping applications. It sucks to have to stock totally separate complete kits that only fit one chassis. Not to mention the fact that turbo piping is just welded up stainless pipe and pre bent sections. Assuming you have a good welder on staff you can produce piping kits cheaper than the CNC costs probably were.

I still like the big supercharger options, but I would recommend only stocking one and telling people there might be a wait time.

I would probably eventually get around to doing a small turbo kit on the SRT 10. I don't need a lot... just another 100 rwhp just in case I just look at the spare battery tray and think how nice it would be to put a small air to water heatexchange there... or maybe even enough room in the grill area for a straight up air to air intercooler. Plenty of room for a single turbo on the passenger side. I know well the advantages of the twins... but a decent sized single will meet my needs and the packaging would be relatively easy.

As for my old blower motor... it awaits a new chassis. No way I was giving it away with the H2 when I sold it. I just need to stuff it in something light so it can run low 10's and be "happy" again.

Tuning is critical. My truck was averaging 8 to 9 mpg then Sean Roe spent a lot of time getting the tune spot on...I drive pretty easily, but am now at nearly 12 mpg according to the oem calculator.

 

[FATJACK]

It was not our finest hour... that's for sure. I hope he could give us another chance some day, now that some of the riff-raff is outta here.

Barry Grant would have been one of our very best members and a super nice guy.

 

[scoobert]

first time i saw this thread. i would like a build your own kit. i buy the t4 manifolds and the intake parts from you, get my own used turbos, rebuilt,
and thats that. not everyone wants to drop 7-12k. i might even go over my own engine to save cash. so i hope you can do a decant price on manifolds and intake with a universal t4 connector.

Hi Everyone,

I have to make a decision based on solid information and need your input. It’s regarding the Top Mount Twin Screw Supercharger kits we’ve been making.

Back in late 2006, when we began sending out the kits in a production form, they were intended to be a product that added great HP per dollar while pushing the capabilities of the stock engine to the limits of the pistons. In the regard of the pistons, we’ve all seen since then that their durability is really weak to any form of forced induction. Many people who go F.I. on their engines end up upgrading the internals (pistons and rods) to make repairs and accommodate the power adders.

Some things have changed since we began making the SC kits a few years ago. Improvements to the compressor and engine management have been made, but mainly, the cost to produce has changed. At the time I began making them, I owned two CNC machining centers. To figure out what the kits had to sell for, I simply took my cost of materials, the monthly payments on the machines divided by 40 hours a week and multiplied by the time it took to machine the parts, the cost of the individual smaller parts (injectors, bolts, etc) and added the actual labor time at the shop labor rate to machine / assemble / package each kit. That was what the kits ended up being sold for. We were basically covering expenses and earning our income based on the labor work done. It was a fair way to do it.

Last October, we downsized and I sold the CNC machines. There are lots of machine shops needing work right now, so I was able to justify loosing that floor space and overhead in favor of having parts made as needed at outside shops. Before selling the machines, we made a bunch of inventory. So, over the last several months we’ve been using that inventory and taking the time to test a different supercharger (the Eaton TVS 2300). As an FYI, the Eaton is not “better†in this application and we’re not going to go with it on the trucks. The 3.3L is still better.

So, here’s where we’re at today. In order to make more kits, I had to get current price quotes on machine work and parts.

Until now, the kits were $6150 in black. Let’s say that the peak HP to peak HP gain was 150 (though obviously, the percentage gain and torque gain at lower RPM’s is much higher). $6,150 divided by 150 equals $41 per HP. That’s pretty cheap horsepower in a specialty / low volume application like this. If you use a smaller pulley and get another 25-50 HP, that HP to dollar figure gets even better.

To build today’s kits, it’s going to cost $7,365. An SCT or VEC3 will be beyond that (we won’t make it a part of a package now because so many of them are out there). Using the same 150 HP value as before, that makes each HP gain about $49. Still ok, but before I go out and borrow on a credit line to make kits, I need to find out from you guys if there’s enough market / demand / interest in them. I’m not in a position to sit on $73,650 in additional inventory.

There are some other things influencing my decision that you all should be made aware of; I don’t know where the HP cap is for this kit. It wasn’t tested by me beyond about 650 RWHP. If a guy gets a built motor and wants to go higher, this may not be the kit for it. In that case, a twin turbo is the best option. Higher boost and less HP loss due to driving the form of forced induction would absolutely yield more horsepower.

If demand is low on the kits, I’m considering not making them any more and making a twin turbo kit instead. That will allow the guys with existing twin screw Supercharger an outlet to sell the kit at a good price and an avenue to go higher HP on their forced induction. On the Viper cars for example, SC kits that are upwards of seven years old are still bringing $5,000 and some newer ones are trading at $6,500. That’s at least 66% of new. Use the same math on the Ram and a used kit would sell for at least around $4,060. Not bad for the buyer and seller both.

To do a production twin turbo kit with an intercooler would probably run about $9,000 to $10,000 based on what we’re spending on the car kit right now (don’t hold me to that, it’s just an estimate based on current / projected expenses).

Given that a twin screw SC kit will only be about $2,500 less than a Twin Turbo and is HP limited, what would you guys do if it were you? Obviously, if money and man power were dramatically different, I would do both at the same time. But, I’m not in a position to do both at once and if I start making the SC kits now, it will simply put the possibility of a turbo kit that much farther down the road.

Need some input here guys. What do you think? I want to make a sound decision on how to best spend my time and energy. You’re all the ones that would be burning tires at the other end of this process, so your input is very valuable to me.

Thanks in advance,
Sean

 

[wesalbert]

I just see multiple turbos as a viable alternative...I can see four cylinder engines with twin turbos and that will open the door to four small turbos for the six cylinder engines. And maybe four medium turbos for the larger displacement engines.

Who will be the first to market with a four turbo bolt on? Laugh, but mark my words...

Back in the 90's when I had Fox body mustangs (93) there as a company running 4 turbos on the 5.0. That thing looked awsome, not sure really how it performed though.

 

[71dusterjon]

im sure the diesel trucks will be the first to have a 4 turbo setup. you could have two small turbos spool up two big turbos.

 

[kennygene]

I really don't plan to add any power adders to my truck at this time. However, I would go with twin turbos if I had the choice. These trucks have gobs of low end and would be much more driveable with the turbos than a supercharger. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Prof]

Stop by sometime...I think you will really enjoy the "driveability" of the Roe SC (even with the 10 lb pulley!).

The concept of twin turbos certainly provide the most potential...but I am of the opinion that the Roe and Paxton SC's already push the limits of what is usable on the street in our trucks.

I have a supercharger (oem) in my daily driver too. It pushes 9 lbs of boost in a much more appropriate frame and suspension system...I think it would tolerate 25 to 30% more boost because it is much better designed for that kind of power. Our trucks are trucks...we all often forget that very important point.

 

[kennygene]

I'd love to take a ride in your truck if I lived a little closer. Maybe someday we'll run together.
I was in Illinois last summer during an ironbutt ride.

 

[nycstev]

I really don't plan to add any power adders to my truck at this time. However, I would go with twin turbos if I had the choice. These trucks have gobs of low end and would be much more driveable with the turbos than a supercharger. Just my 2 cents.

You got it reversed. These trucks are Plenty drivable with the Roe SC. Even @ 10 lbs