New Fuel Standards

Prof

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2016 and beyond the fastest cars from dealers will be electric. We will need to adjust our thinking...but we will find ways to make them very quick...some are already working on it! Electric vehicles have huge immediate torque...it may be fun, but very quiet...

http://www.comcast.net/articles/finance/20090518/US.Obama.Autos/


Another technology that will really come into its own is twin turbos on very small engines. That will also be fun!

I bet that within two years we will see quad small turbos...on medium displacement engines...
 
A lot of people have probably seen this car already on TV, but the Tesla is starting what your talking about Roy. 0-60 in 3.9 seconds :burnout:

http://www.teslamotors.com/

Of course these cars stand no chance in an accident.
 
I think electric cars will just be a stepping point until we can come up with something better. I am not convinced there good at all for the environment. All that plastic and heavy metals . Batteries have to be made some where and my bet is China will step up to the plate.

Professor whats you take on hydrogen and why did Obama do this
http://www.scientificamerican.com/b...ip-hydrogen-economy-obama-cuts-hyd-2009-05-08

I agree that the days of big displacement gas guzzling cars is sadly coming to and end . O sure they ones that are out there will still be run by those that can afford to run them , but car companies will not be making them.

Brandon
 
Interesting article from a good source. I was not aware of this Obama cut!

I have a feeling that he has not turned his back on the technology...but BMW has committed a huge amount of money to the technology...I bet that he is in hopes that Germany will back BMW with research funds for the hydrogen concepts. Just a guess, but we may hear later that he has cut a deal with other countries to pick up some of the slack in some of the areas where they are already out front.

I agree with the issue about battery problems. But one quantum leap in battery technology may be in the near future...that would really change the playing field.

I wish more would read publications like Scientific American! Most just stick with Rush...
 
Looks like its time for me to go buy a couple more srt-10s,just to be on the safe side,man I do love to leave a big carbon footprint(no offence Roy).
 
tesla-roadster.jpg


The Tesla Roadster is a swweeet looking car. I saw one in Los Angeles, I believe they have a dealer store in the Los Angeles area. The base price is $109,000.00 plus:eek:
 
My wife was interested...until she read in Road and Track that the test driver for the magazine said that he had to take the word of the company on how long it could run on a single charge, because he could only ride it in for about 150 miles and refused to ride in it anymore because it was so uncomfortable.

The owner of Tesla is a very bright guy...made his billions when he sold "Paypal".
 
First lets be truthful if it pertains to a vehicle there is no such thing as a green car. No debating here. Second all these battery power shit is ten times worse then petro will ever be. Ever been to a battery manufacturing plant? ever seen how they dispose of bad batteries? Bet they wont show pictures of that in the news. Dont buy into the BS. I am going the David Blume way, I have the acreage now I will put it to use, moonshiners need a little tips. Oh and the alcohol conversion for our trucks is 645 dollars. I am sorry now they want to tell us what to drive. Nope:eviltongue: :angel: :ridinghorse: :bs:


David Blumes alcohol can be gas. AWSOME BOOK. any investors?
 
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Sorry Obama but I have no use for miniature cars so that their tiny engines can actually move them. Nor do I have any use for an electric car that only goes <200 miles on one charge. This is especially true when you compare the cost of one of these cars new to the cost of a more useful gas powered car. Also the current life of these batteries is around 100k miles... most gas powered cars now carry a 100k mile WARRANTY.

Reminds me a lot of what got us stuck with ethanol... government forcing policy when the technology isn't there... especially not at an affordable price. Toyota currently loses money on every Prius it sells and this car is already far more expensive than comparable gas cars. New car prices are about to go through the roof for amazing small, uncomfortable cars with no range.

This is what I figured Obama would do when he said "GM needs to build cars that Americans want to buy." What he meant was "GM needs to build xxxx car and then we'll figure out how to make Americans buy it." Oh and how much money does the government make in fuel taxes?? Think they are just going to give that up? Wonder what creative new taxes the government is going to come up with to punish those of us who refuse to buy a Obama/Pelosi/Govt Motors vehicle??
 
Jeremy Clarkson did a test drive on the Tesla roadster. He found that the battery only lasted like 55 minutes. They brought in another one and it broke down!....looks like they need to do some fixing.
 
ohh yeah and 6,000 laptop batteries?/?????? What happens to them when they screw up???
 
Scrambler1 said:
Sorry Obama but I have no use for miniature cars so that their tiny engines can actually move them. Nor do I have any use for an electric car that only goes <200 miles on one charge. This is especially true when you compare the cost of one of these cars new to the cost of a more useful gas powered car. Also the current life of these batteries is around 100k miles... most gas powered cars now carry a 100k mile WARRANTY.

Reminds me a lot of what got us stuck with ethanol... government forcing policy when the technology isn't there... especially not at an affordable price. Toyota currently loses money on every Prius it sells and this car is already far more expensive than comparable gas cars. New car prices are about to go through the roof for amazing small, uncomfortable cars with no range.

This is what I figured Obama would do when he said "GM needs to build cars that Americans want to buy." What he meant was "GM needs to build xxxx car and then we'll figure out how to make Americans buy it." Oh and how much money does the government make in fuel taxes?? Think they are just going to give that up? Wonder what creative new taxes the government is going to come up with to punish those of us who refuse to buy a Obama/Pelosi/Govt Motors vehicle??


Once again Joe you take the narrow view of the issue. I urge you to look at the pragmatic impact of the new standards.

Here are just a couple of examples of why the battery issue, and the "my wants" issues are so short sighted:

Through 2016, new CAFE standards will take the equivalent of 177 million cars off the road -- or shut down 194 coal plants.

How many troublesome batteries would you be willing to accept to offset those numbers?

17% of the problem with CO2 emissions come from tailpipes...this action is a huge step in the right direction environmentally, in terms of cutting our dependence on foreign oil, and making our auto companies competitive with non-domestic brands.

Our auto companies may not survive...and if they don't we will then have only foreign vehicles to choose from...which is terrible...but those cars already exceed the standards that the President just set for our vehicles to achieve in six years. By the way if we do so, we will still be at a huge disadvantage because the foreign manufacturers will have moved much farther down the standards line than we will have achieved. With that in mind one could probably make the case that the new standards are not nearly still enough. Some are saying that our standard should be to achieve fleet equity with the best of the foreign competitors...we could do it, we have done harder things...but we do not have the will to do so.
 
Hey Prof, I am not a big believer in the global warming theory mainly because the science involved in supporting it is usually surrounded with political hype and the science that debunks it appears to be more based on proper scientific method and theories.

What is your take on this: http://junkscience.com/Greenhouse/index.html

Also, the whole reason for scrapping the hydrogen technology is that hydrogen is not readily found in it pure form, i.e., you have to add energy to extract it, such as the electrolysis of water, etc. From a global perspective, hydrogen becomes only an energy transport mechanism, not a source of energy. It is basically the same thing as a rechargeable battery. You have to get the initial energy from some where. Petroleum and coal are typically those sources. Because of this, using hydrogen doesn't really change the argument of where the energy comes from. It just obfuscates the source a bit. Plus, there are some inherent inefficiencies in converting potential energy to from one storage form to another. So at best, the hydrogen economy takes the existing energy reserves and multiplies them by 90%. Typically, it is more efficient to just stick with the source (i.e., burn fuel directly in the vehicle or coal and/or natural gas directly in the power plant, etc).

The only green solutions are solar, wind, geothermal, and possibly nuclear. But, since autos are only 17% of the source of CO2 and power plants make up most of the remainder, it would really make more sense to try to convert the power plants to a green technology and leave the vehicles alone.

Oh, and just for argument's sake, does anyone know why gasoline and diesel were selected as the fuels for automotive transportation?

It is because out of all the distillates from petroleum they are they most suitable for portable power production. They could have used any other chemical as a fuel, but these two fuels have the best properties for the least amount of energy input to refine. You get the most energy out with the least energy input. In a sense, they are the greenest fuels available and are liquids at room temperature.

Everyone jumps on the alternative fuel bandwagon, but one of the biggest reasons that gasoline and diesel are used is that they can be transported at normal temperatures and pressures. To illustrate my point: natural gas as a motor fuel typically produces less unburned hydrocarbon emissions, and similar CO2 emissions as compared to gasoline, but during the refueling process, has over ten times the leakage to atmosphere due to it having to be stored at 4000psi or so in cylinders. In practical use, much more unburned methane emissions are caused just by simply refueling the cylinders. The amount of raw hydrocarbon emissions emitted during the normal course of vehicle use is actually higher with natural gas vehicles than gasoline vehicles because of nature of the fuel and storage requirements and therefore makes a natural gas vehicles more of a green house gas polluter than a gasoline vehicle.

But, since natural gas vehicles make up such a small percentage of the overall fleet of vehicles, everyone seems to just turn their heads and look the other way when this is brought up. It's funny how politics seems to trump science and reality.
 
Remember when everyone was touting changing from paper grocery bags to plastic in order to save the trees? Then a new problem formed... plastic bags filling up landfills and generally polluting the environment. So which was worse?

So CO2 from cars is only 17% of the total amount of emissions. How much more pollutants are going to be produced by the factories manufacturing all of these batteries? How much more by having to recycle or dispose of those batteries when the time comes? I'll try to find more information on this but I've read about a factory in Canada that produces batteries for the Prius and other things that use similar batteries, the pollution from that plant is so heavy that it is located in a remote area away from civilization and very few living things can now inhabit the area. So what is worse, the emissions from cars or from the battery plants??

Nuclear power is pretty darn clean if the bunny huggers would let more plants be built. Our electrical infrastructure is strained as it is and moves are going to have to be made in the area sooner rather than later.

Not to mention I agree with WOT in that I don't believe in all of the hype that surrounds global warming/climate change. Is improving the environment a good thing? Obviously. But at what cost? Dictating what kinds of cars Americans can drive? Outrageous fuel taxes? What is going to happen to the economy when the cost of transporting goods goes sky high because of fuel costs? As much as the environmentalists would like for global warming to be a FACT it isn't. Based on the scientific method it cannot be proven, nor can it be disproved.

Why does the government feel like it is required to dictate what we need vs what we want? Why doesn't the government focus on technology that is proven and affordable before it forces bullshit down our throats like cars that only go 150 miles before they need to charge overnight. Can our already stressed electrical grid handle the added electrical usage of everyone charging their cars at night so they can go to work the next day? There is a lot of money to be made in technology that actually solves the problem... why not wait for it to become a reality before they choke our economy?? I don't think I'm being short sighted at all.
 
WOT said:
Hey Prof, I am not a big believer in the global warming theory mainly because the science involved in supporting it is usually surrounded with political hype and the science that debunks it appears to be more based on proper scientific method and theories.

What is your take on this: http://junkscience.com/Greenhouse/index.html


A brief response...off to an appointment.

Steve Malloy the guy who owns JunkScience is a paid advocate for Exxon and Phillip Morris.

You really need to look closely at who the authors are of some of the drivel that can be found on the internet. Note also that he does not use the names of the people who are in his mast head...the articles do not attribute their information to him or his science "advisors".

Gotta go...here is an interesting note on Steve (do you really trust lawyers...he is not a scientist by the way...)

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Steven_J._Milloy
 
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i agree joe, looks like power companies are where we needs to invest. dont forget the cost up cleaning up accidents from the battery powered cars. i know cat has gotten out of the commercial engine game. they couldnt afford to spend the millions it would take to get their engine to pass emissions. now the engines we buy get worse fuel mileage and have more shit bolted to the side of them to tear up. they run way hotter than they used to. ive seen them come in off the road and the fuel tanks are hot to the touch. they got them so lean now youd think the air they put out is cleaner than the air they take in.
 
eddie102870 said:
i agree joe, looks like power companies are where we needs to invest. dont forget the cost up cleaning up accidents from the battery powered cars. i know cat has gotten out of the commercial engine game. they couldnt afford to spend the millions it would take to get their engine to pass emissions. now the engines we buy get worse fuel mileage and have more shit bolted to the side of them to tear up. they run way hotter than they used to. ive seen them come in off the road and the fuel tanks are hot to the touch. they got them so lean now youd think the air they put out is cleaner than the air they take in.

What has been done to diesels is unbelievable. Ultralow sulfur diesel fuel knocked a little over 1mpg off my highway mileage in my 06 3500 Dodge dually. I had an 02 F250 diesel with 38" tires that got over 20mpg on the highway. My current 06 dually gets around 16mpg. A friends new Dodge diesel with the greatly increased emission crap over mine is lucky to get 14mpg empty and his is a single wheel.
 
Prof said:
A brief response...off to an appointment.

Steve Malloy the guy who owns JunkScience is a paid advocate for Exxon and Phillip Morris.

You really need to look closely at who the authors are of some of the drivel that can be found on the internet. Note also that he does not use the names of the people who are in his mast head...the articles do not attribute their information to him or his science "advisors".

Gotta go...here is an interesting note on Steve (do you really trust lawyers...he is not a scientist by the way...)

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Steven_J._Milloy
''

Hey, thanks for the response. I'll continue to research....
 
Prof said:
...(do you really trust lawyers...he is not a scientist by the way...

I guess I'm screwed. I'm married to a lawyer. I must have misread one of her letters she wrote me when we first met: I though she wrote that she was a layer.....
 

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