New Fuel Standards

[WOT]

No doubt. I have to say that while driving that Prius, I felt a little more responsible, but it felft like a little part of me was starting to shrivel up inside. To make up for it, when I got home, I got in my truck and went out hunting for mustangs and such to play with. I think I burned up about 15 gallons in one night. I felt much better afterwards and was secure in knowing that no little gay car could take away my manhood.

 

[Prof]

Our family has the same experience with our Prius...which I love to drive by the way...

I average about 48 mpg, my wife averages about 40. Christine is a type A personality and interested in getting places and not wasting any time in route, I on the other hand am an old fart that enjoys the Prius for what it is and trying to make it smooth and economical.

Driving style is a large part of the equation.

I can do the same in my truck...I can average 12 mpg or 6 depending on my level of testosterone!

 

[SlvrSnake]

So, next question: what is the problem with oil? (Btw, I am only posing these questions because I am curious as to what most people think is wrong with our current situation and how we got to where we are now. I have done some significant research into this area, so I have my own opinions, but I just want to know what others thoughts are).

Oh, and Prof, I haven't had a chance to read the articles that you posted links for. I'll respond once I've read them.

Thx.

The simple problem with oil, it is a finite resource and is only in abundance (for now) in places that are far away and controlled by people who do not really care for us, that is political, nothing to do with oil and its benefits/deficits. It may be found in abundance in the oceans but the technology and cost to get to it does not make it profitable. I would imagine that is next place we will go looking in earnest, developing better ways to get to it all the while. We are crafty like that. Necessity is the mother of all invention.

However, when oil supplies do eventually run out, thats it, no more. That is why I mentioned alternatives that must be found. What they are, I couldn't tell you. If I knew, I wouldn't be sitting here having a discussion about it. That is left for people much more intelligent than myself, for certain. I do not think overall oil is bad at all, sure just like anything else it has its downsides. But what doesn't? It is amazing all of the things that we have created using it. However, if we do not find something to replace it that can be relatively easily re-generated then we're screwed.

This is an interesting discussion but one I feel that has no easy answers. I guess we will see what the future holds.

 

[rreinicherr]

Global warming is the biggest scam ever! It has been proven the earths temperature has went down in the last decade????? I have read a very good scientific article that stated if the CO2 in the air was doubled today. It might make a tenth of a degree increase in temperature. The science is not there yet to figure out how the envirement and the whole atmoshpere work together. Then you have all the different wavelengths of suns radiation interaction with our atmosphere. It is much more complicated than just CO2 or pollution in the air. Scientist don't know enough yet to make any accurate predictions. Unless there is a profit to be made. On top of that C02 is very small portion in what even heats the earth. It is mostly water vapor that keeps the earth warm. The oceans and plant life on the earth effect the climate far more than humans. Then I have read where one of their iceberg sensors was loose and was giving readings that the there size was a lot smaller than what was actuallt rtrue. They were off by the size of a state like Iowa. Then they just tried to do a exploration at one of the poles and could not complete their work because it was so cold.

Then we have fuels that can already be enviromentally good made from plants we grow. It just cost more to make them. Therefore there is no big push to make them. Wisk grass is suppose to make the best fuel. Much better than the corn or soybean ethanol. Why are we not making it it now? Cheaper to pump oil out of the ground.

Just like this BS Cap & Trade Legislation. It is just an excuse to rase taxes on everyone. Which goes against Obama's campaign promis of no higher taxes on 95% of Americans. We are all going to pay a lot more to cover all this deficit spending! Then it will passed on to our kids and then their kids. That is the sadest of all of this political BS. The average Joe/Jolene gets it again and noone says a word.

Sorry for the rant!

 

[Prof]

Global warming is the biggest scam ever! It has been proven the earths temperature has went down in the last decade????? I have read a very good scientific article that stated if the CO2 in the air was doubled today. It might make a tenth of a degree increase in temperature. The science is not there yet to figure out how the envirement and the whole atmoshpere work together. Then you have all the different wavelengths of suns radiation interaction with our atmosphere. It is much more complicated than just CO2 or pollution in the air. Scientist don't know enough yet to make any accurate predictions. Unless there is a profit to be made. On top of that C02 is very small portion in what even heats the earth. It is mostly water vapor that keeps the earth warm. The oceans and plant life on the earth effect the climate far more than humans. Then I have read where one of their iceberg sensors was loose and was giving readings that the there size was a lot smaller than what was actuallt rtrue. They were off by the size of a state like Iowa. Then they just tried to do a exploration at one of the poles and could not complete their work because it was so cold.

Then we have fuels that can already be enviromentally good made from plants we grow. It just cost more to make them. Therefore there is no big push to make them. Wisk grass is suppose to make the best fuel. Much better than the corn or soybean ethanol. Why are we not making it it now? Cheaper to pump oil out of the ground.

Just like this BS Cap & Trade Legislation. It is just an excuse to rase taxes on everyone. Which goes against Obama's campaign promis of no higher taxes on 95% of Americans. We are all going to pay a lot more to cover all this deficit spending! Then it will passed on to our kids and then their kids. That is the sadest of all of this political BS. The average Joe/Jolene gets it again and noone says a word.

Sorry for the rant!

Send me the citation for the first article that you mention. I am willing to bet that it is not a peer reviewed article and I would like to research the background of the author.

Or was it just Rush making his science known?

Your second paragraph does hold hope. There are fuel alternatives that are attractive if we can get the cost of production down. That is what science and research is all about, finding better ways to do things cheaper. People scream about batteries and their impact on the environment, and they are a negative, but with out their use no one will do the work necessary to make them less and less damaging. The process if often slow, but the failure to work on the alternatives is generally driven by commercial viability.

Cap and trade is not a perfect solution but it is one of the strategies that is currently working. Over the past three years there has been an average of 3% reduction in environmentally hazardous emissions due to cap and trade. Not perfect and not great, but a positive movement.

 

[Scrambler1]

Roy my problem is that in our economy is desperately hurting right now as well as our major auto manufacturers in serious trouble. The government is looking at forcing things down our throats that will seriously injure our economy through cap and trade and other taxes as well as force auto manufacturers who are currently living off of our tax dollars to pump massive amounts of money that they don't have into R&D. The only reason for doing this is because of this trumped up climate change crap that CANNOT BE SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN for a myriad of reasons. The liberal government is risking everything in order to appease their environmentalist voters at the expense of our tax dollars and economic well being.

Can you or anyone else PROVE to me and everyone else that the situation is so dire that it's worth all of the damage that it's going to do... right now more than just about any other time in our history?? The risk isn't worth the reward.

 

[Prof]

Joe I take exactly the opposite approach. I think the risk of not doing anything now could be catastrophic and put us in a situation from which we cannot recover. So I think the risk is to not take immediate action. If we are wrong in your scenario, our environment may be irreparably damaged, in my approach if I am wrong it has just cost us money. I will risk money rather than our environment anytime!

Do you see my point at all?

Heck I may feel the way I feel because I own ocean front (well, Florida Bay front) property, but I still see the down side to my approach is money. The possible down side to your approach is the death of species, a terrible degrading of the quality of life for humans, and possibly increased deaths...seems like a pretty decent bet that risking money is better than risking life.

Here is one of thousands of sites that document the recent changes vrs. the changes over centuries.

http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/globalwarmA.html

 

[Scrambler1]

There are countless studies that show that the earth is currently cooling, ice caps are reforming etc. There are MANY other factors that effect the temp of the atmosphere besides what can be contributed to people. Also you are talking about changes over centuries. How long have we had the technology to truly be that precise with global temp measurement?? These people are talking about tenths of degrees.

You asked if I can see your point. I can, can you see mine? You believe in climate change and are willing to risk everything else to follow it. I don't believe a lick of it and think that it is total BS and see no value in possible irreparable damage to our economy in the name of something that cannot be PROVEN.

I too live on the ocean (SC) and and fish regularly. I am not an environmentalist or bunny hugger by any means. I do however care about the environment and consider myself a conservationist. I have yet to see any real FACTS that prove that this thing is real much less teetering on the brink of disaster. China is about to move way beyond us when it comes to pollution. Nothing we can do is capable of offsetting that. Can you show me any evidence, scientifically proven fact, that points to imminent disaster? Why not wait 5 years and let the US economy and people get back on their respective feet before adding taxes and slowing the economy and dragging this recession out for a decade with an ever increasing deficit??

Until climate change is scientifically proven to be fact, the costs are too great to risk on a topic that has become a trumped up political hot button fed by fear and lack of understanding.

 

[Prof]

Joe we will continue to disagree and that is ok. My point is that I am willing to risk money, you are willing to risk the environment.

Yes there is all kinds of evidence. I do see your point and in the absence of "proven (your term) evidence" I prefer to take the cautious route and avoid the possibility of catastrophe, you prefer to preserve your here and now.

I did not say I was "willing to risk everything", those are your words. Cap and trade has existed for several years in Europe and I don't see the demise of all business because of the implementation.

I doubt that we will come to a consensus. I prefer a cautious approach and you say prove it first. And I contend that there is nothing such as "irreparable damage to our economy". Again I urge you to go back to economics 101. Economies ebb and flow, they don't disappear.

But I venture to say that all governments will be moving in the future to try to manage our environment. And to me that will be a good thing. Not that it will change my life much, but maybe there will be a positive impact for my grandchildren.

 

[Muzzy]

U.S. Senate Minority Report

Interesting read. Small government = good. Larger intrusive government = :evil: Don't like them telling me what I can and can't do. Our roots are in our constitution, that's where we need to get back to.

Oh yeah...pass the Fairtax, abolish the IRS.

-Muzzy