Piston Issues Confirmed..I Think.

bigike said:
Just CANT boost a stock internal engine.
Click to expand...



It has been my observation(and I don't think I am alone on this)that the person who purchases these type vehicles and leaves them stock, is the exception, and would think that of all people SRT should know this.

Years ago I was fortunate to meet and have a conversation with a retired powertrain engineer and he told me that a grocery getter engine should be able to take a 50% increase in power reliably and a performance specific engine much more. (Which saved me a lot of $ at the time)

If the Viper engine is not a performance specific engine that should be able to tolerate a significant increase in output reliably, what is it?





.
 
supercar1of1 said:

It has been my observation(and I don't think I am alone on this)that the person who purchases these type vehicles and leaves them stock, is the exception, and would think that of all people SRT should know this.

Years ago I was fortunate to meet and have a conversation with a retired powertrain engineer and he told me that a grocery getter engine should be able to take a 50% increase in power reliably and a performance specific engine much more. (Which saved me a lot of $ at the time)

If the Viper engine is not a performance specific engine that should be able to tolerate a significant increase in output reliably, what is it?





.
Click to expand...
Now that is a very good question.:rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:
 
supercar1of1 said:

It has been my observation(and I don't think I am alone on this)that the person who purchases these type vehicles and leaves them stock, is the exception, and would think that of all people SRT should know this.

Years ago I was fortunate to meet and have a conversation with a retired powertrain engineer and he told me that a grocery getter engine should be able to take a 50% increase in power reliably and a performance specific engine much more. (Which saved me a lot of $ at the time)

If the Viper engine is not a performance specific engine that should be able to tolerate a significant increase in output reliably, what is it?
.
Click to expand...


On the other hand, maybe the engineering for their stock performance engines are much closer to the limits as they sell them...there is no logic in assuming that a "race" engine should be able to be built more than a normal engine...we do not know what the engineers have done. They may have pushed the tolerance of the engine close to the limits just to have a stock screamer. I think you are jumping to conclusions without any supporting evidence. Dodge has gone on record saying not to fool with the '08 engine...that it is at the distant end of its capability...

Only the designing engineers of the engine we have know...:dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:
 
Prof said:
On the other hand, maybe the engineering for their stock performance engines are much closer to the limits as they sell them...there is no logic in assuming that a "race" engine should be able to be built more than a normal engine...we do not know what the engineers have done. They may have pushed the tolerance of the engine close to the limits just to have a stock screamer. I think you are jumping to conclusions without any supporting evidence. Dodge has gone on record saying not to fool with the '08 engine...that it is at the distant end of its capability...

Only the designing engineers of the engine we have know...:dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:
Click to expand...
Very good points Roy,it does make you stop and think.:D :rock: :rock:
 
Our engines were only designed for a load factor not much than stock.They engineer them to cost the least amount and still capable of the job. Doesn't take much to engineer something stronger, thats an easy one ,it takes a good enginner to build something to survive for the least cost. Ford is no better in this arena too. The Lightning has $48 dollars worth of connecting rods in a stock modular motor. Then Ford cried when the had to put $42 apiece manley rods in the 03 cobra because there stock rods would blow on their torture dyno.I believe when you purchase these trucks, for the amounts we paid for them they should come with the best , but in todays world not going to happen. Ford does have strong rods now in the Ford GT and GT500.
 
Prof said:
On the other hand, maybe the engineering for their stock performance engines are much closer to the limits as they sell them...there is no logic in assuming that a "race" engine should be able to be built more than a normal engine...we do not know what the engineers have done. They may have pushed the tolerance of the engine close to the limits just to have a stock screamer. I think you are jumping to conclusions without any supporting evidence. Dodge has gone on record saying not to fool with the '08 engine...that it is at the distant end of its capability...

Only the designing engineers of the engine we have know...:dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:
Click to expand...


The point is that what matters is the power output in relation to the displacement of the engine, ie, 1hp per c.i., 1.5hp per c.i. etc.
These engines are only putting out 1hp per c.i.(If That) stock.

My point is that it seems perfectly reasonable to expect our engines to
tolerate the same HP to displacement ratio as a standard grocery getter
that you don't have to upgrade the internals on unless you are going over about 1.5-1.8hp per cubic inch.







.
 
As has been stated, the motor was most likely designed at the edge of its performance envelope. I would think that engineers were thinking "Its 500hp..in a TRUCK!!. Why would the majority of owners want more?" Then someone decided to put a Roe on their truck, or a Paxton, or Turbo..And guess what?..motors blew..Obviously these mods are a contributing factor..Not that an N/A motor never took a crap. Did they cut corners on the Gen III? it seems so..Are they going to issue new pistons and rods to all Gen III owners?..doubtful..To think they would is just ridiculous..
Does anyone know if this is a problem with the Gen III Viper car too?..If it is, then the idea that the pistons are an issue holds water..If its just with the trucks, well thats something to consider..
 
supercar1of1 said:

The point is that what matters is the power output in relation to the displacement of the engine, ie, 1hp per c.i., 1.5hp per c.i. etc.
These engines are only putting out 1hp per c.i.(If That) stock.

My point is that it seems perfectly reasonable to expect our engines to
tolerate the same HP to displacement ratio as a standard grocery getter
that you don't have to upgrade the internals on unless you are going over about 1.5-1.8hp per cubic inch.
.
Click to expand...
In contrast the Porsche 944 Turbo (951) has a 2.5 litre 4 cylinder engine and can be modded to put out 400-500 hp without going into the engine.:( Stock hp was between 217-250 hp.
Turbo vs Lightning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCp7--RI2JE
Turbo vs Cobra http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl7Eb3jcMDs
 
Last edited:
Riff62 said:
As has been stated, the motor was most likely designed at the edge of its performance envelope. I would think that engineers were thinking "Its 500hp..in a TRUCK!!. Why would the majority of owners want more?" Then someone decided to put a Roe on their truck, or a Paxton, or Turbo..And guess what?..motors blew..Obviously these mods are a contributing factor..Not that an N/A motor never took a crap. Did they cut corners on the Gen III? it seems so..Are they going to issue new pistons and rods to all Gen III owners?..doubtful..To think they would is just ridiculous..
Does anyone know if this is a problem with the Gen III Viper car too?..If it is, then the idea that the pistons are an issue holds water..If its just with the trucks, well thats something to consider..
Click to expand...


For many years now 500hp in an engine displacing 400+ci's is not a hole lot to
write home about.
Ask yourself this.
What possible sense would it make to engineer and produce an engine that adds so much expense for both the manufacturer and consumer if the level of
performance could have been duplicated or even reliably exceeded buy a proven off the shelf engine,ie stroked 440?:dontknow:






.
 
The 2008 Viper has 600HP and owners are already modding...no matter how much power the mfg engineers into an engine people will want more....cant blame the mfg when a modded engine breaks..:dontknow:
 
supercar1of1 said:

For many years now 500hp in an engine displacing 400+ci's is not a hole lot to
write home about.
Ask yourself this.
What possible sense would it make to engineer and produce an engine that adds so much expense for both the manufacturer and consumer if the level of
performance could have been duplicated or even reliably exceeded buy a proven off the shelf engine,ie stroked 440?:dontknow:






.
Click to expand...

Because it says VIPER on the valve covers..lol..
Would you buy an 08 Viper and throw a Roe on a stock motor knowing that it wasnt designed to withstand it?..Well the engineers said "Dont do it" on that one..With the Gen III they didnt..Of course they might not have known..or did but didnt think there would be a whole lot of FI on a Gen III..who knows?..The only thing I can suggest is to put a stroked 440 in your truck..then you got no worries I guess..
 
TNVIPER said:
The 2008 Viper has 600HP and owners are already modding...no matter how much power the mfg engineers into an engine people will want more....cant blame the mfg when a modded engine breaks..:dontknow:
Click to expand...

Thank you..A 600hp Viper is designed for people who want a 600hp Viper..not for people who want a 600 hp viper that they can mod to 1000hp on a stock motor..to expect 7-800hp out of a stock motor is most likely beyond DESIGN LIMITS..for the reason stated above..
 
Riff62 said:
Thank you..A 600hp Viper is designed for people who want a 600hp Viper..not for people who want a 600 hp viper that they can mod to 1000hp on a stock motor..to expect 7-800hp out of a stock motor is most likely beyond DESIGN LIMITS..for the reason stated above..
Click to expand...



That's just it, why would they design an engine that is less durable(relatively
speaking), than a standard engine; unless it was a mistake?






.
 
because they think hey we got 500hp out of it..who needs more?..then someone says hey lets build a 600hp motor for the new Viper..they hit 600hp and say ok..we got it..they think why would anyone want MORE than that?.Im guessing, but it seems plausible..doesnt matter cause the Viper is going to die in a few years..no 700hp version..then you will be putting forged internals in when you rebuild anyway..
 
Would you like any cheese with your whine? Honestly I can't ever see you getting anywhere with Dodge on any kind of compensation from this piston issue. What really strikes me as silly is when I read about people who spend upwards of almost 10 G's for a mere 5-6 lbs. of boost. Bottom line, Do Not Mod these engines because it's not worth it.
 
kcjive said:
Would you like any cheese with your whine? Honestly I can't ever see you getting anywhere with Dodge on any kind of compensation from this piston issue. What really strikes me as silly is when I read about people who spend upwards of almost 10 G's for a mere 5-6 lbs. of boost. Bottom line, Do Not Mod these engines because it's not worth it.
Click to expand...

Everytime I drive mine......it was worth every dime....:p
 
Wow..10 whole posts on this site..
No one is whining..merely pointing out an issue that has been a problem..As for spending money and it being worth it or not, well I guess thats a personal issue..Dont expect any positive responses to your post by the way..It would be like going to a strip club and advising guys not to get a lap dance because its not worth it..lol..
 
Riff62 said:
because they think hey we got 500hp out of it..who needs more?..then someone says hey lets build a 600hp motor for the new Viper..they hit 600hp and say ok..we got it..they think why would anyone want MORE than that?.Im guessing, but it seems plausible..doesnt matter cause the Viper is going to die in a few years..no 700hp version..then you will be putting forged internals in when you rebuild anyway..
Click to expand...


I am already trying to get forged parts for mine so I can go FI, it's just with all the pistons crapping out instead of grinning when I pass a car or get on the expressway, my butt puckers and I'm thinking please don't go BOOM!







.
 
supercar1of1 said:

I am already trying to get forged parts for mine so I can go FI, it's just with all the pistons crapping out instead of grinning when I pass a car or get on the expressway, my butt puckers and I'm thinking please don't go BOOM!







.
Click to expand...
I hear ya.I doubt you would have an issue,.but the price of ownership is what it is..If you didnt know that someday you would be replacing the clutch, or buying an SCT, or whatever, well then you didnt do your homework first..The piston issue is a relatively cloudy issue..not many have shared as Prof has with his pics..We hear of an oiling issue with #3 piston, and things like that, and have discussed the ring land/ piston issue to some degree..Prof is FI, and tore his motor down to forge it based on what he believes is a problem..He wants his 14sec monster to last for awhile..lol..He is a smart man..I tend to agree with his thinking..

Sorry Roy..not trying to speak for you or dominate your thread here..
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Support Us

Become A Supporting Member Today!

Click Here For Details

Random Media

image
group1 web
chaynick 12
nothing like it
Back
Top