Rods for Diamond pistons

[blackviper]

Which rods should I use with Diamond pistons and what is the current pricing on any recomendations? I don't want to have to modify the crankshaft.

 

[eddie102870]

bone or boomer can help you get rods

 

[JTS VENOM PERFORMANCE]

If you are just getting a set of rods and pistons and no main caps just get a set of eagle rods, around $1000 or so,

 

[TNVIPER]

Justin at JMB can get Oliver rods..

 

[blackviper]

If I go with the Eagle rods, what mains should I use? How much horsepower will the Eagle rods handle? What about the Oliver rods? I know they are pricier. What is their horsepower capability?

 

[Final GTS]

First of all, are you refering to Diamond pistons with a floating .927/.990 or designed for a press fit .940 like stock?

Like said above, if using diamond pistons w/press fit pins and stock main caps, Eagle rods are about all you need, as your wrist pins and mains will be the weak link. I would not take this combo near 1000 regularly, thats for sure.

If you are looking to do it right at a minimum, go with a full-floating pin setup, and the rods and pistons to match. This can be done with Eagle rods as well, as the stock main caps dictate you staying in the <1000 range.

If you are looking for a NICE setup, use billet mains & studs, nice rod bearings, Oliver/Manley rods w/L19+ hardware, and Custom Diamond or JE Full Floating Pistons/Pins.

If you are looking for top of the line, nice bearing set, Mains & Studs as above, but use Carrillo Rods w/multiphase bolts and floating CP Pistons.

 

[blackviper]

I guess I'm kinda of lost with the last technical explanation. My goal is to be near 1000 HP. I really don't foresee going any further.

 

[Final GTS]

I guess I'm kinda of lost with the last technical explanation. My goal is to be near 1000 HP. I really don't foresee going any further.

The first thing you have to realize is that there is a big difference between a package that can "make" 1000 horsepower, and package that can "live" at that level. If you drive your cars hard, you should go WAY beyond what it will take to "handle" the level you are shooting for. 1000 is about the limit for stock main caps (which hold in the crank). Sure, it can MAKE more, but it wont last. If you are looking to make 1000 and want reliable, main caps & studs are a must, and a full floating pin setup is a no-brainer. Since you are at that level of 1000, which is bordering on the next tier of internals, I would skip Eagle and go right to Oliver or Manley, and JE or CP pistons. You arent quite at the level of Carrillo rods & CP pistons being a must, but it you have to cash, its not a bad investment either.

In regards to the wrist pins, there are too main types:

1. Press Fit; This is what the OEM is. The wrist pin is pressed into the rod, and floats ONLY in the piston. Simplistic and cheap. If you have an off the shelf set of Diamond pistons designed for OEM rods, this is the type you have to use, unless you get a custom rod made for the oddball .940 pin size.

2. Full Floating; The wrist pin is NOT pressed. It floats in the piston as well as the rod, which has a bearing in the pin end of it. These have much more load bearing capability, last longer, and are also more expensive.

In terms of Rods;

Eagle<Manley/Oliver<Carrillo

This applies to both cost, horsepower capability, and overall quality/design/precision.

 

[blackviper]

These pistons were purchased from Roe Racing. I'd like to find a set of rods and main caps that work with them or at least rods. What supporting vendor sells the rods recommended?

 

[Final GTS]

These pistons were purchased from Roe Racing. I'd like to find a set of rods and main caps that work with them or at least rods. What supporting vendor sells the rods recommended?

I would only mix Eagle rods with those pistons- combining them with anything else would be pointless- it would be like putting fully outfitted custom CP pistons on top of OEM Powdered rods.

Billet Main Caps w/Eagle rods and bare bones diamond pistons would also be pointless, the OEM's arent the weak link in combination with those parts.

With the amount of money at stake and the amount of labor to rebuild a Viper engine, this *IS NOT* the area to cut corners!

 

[TNVIPER]

FYI...check your pistons and pins....I bought the Diamonds from Roe and they were not the correct parts. The label on the box was correct but the pistons were too big and the pins were .5" short.....had these been installed in my truck the pistons would have hit the heads...not good..:bawling: ..luckly we have a very competent machine shop here and they caught the mistake.........BTW...this was not Roe's fault...Diamond packaged the wrong parts....Roe immediately had them picked up and refunded my money...

 

[SrtBrad]

FYI...check your pistons and pins....I bought the Diamonds from Roe and they were not the correct parts. The label on the box was correct but the pistons were too big and the pins were .5" short.....had these been installed in my truck the pistons would have hit the heads...not good..:bawling: ..luckly we have a very competent machine shop here and they caught the mistake.........BTW...this was not Roe's fault...Diamond packaged the wrong parts....Roe immediately had them picked up and refunded my money...

Every time I turn around I hear good things about Roe's character. This is a guy I'd like to meet.:rock:

 

[FSTJACK]

What are you going to do use for a power adder or power adders ?

Also are you refering to crankshaft or wheel horsepower ?

 

[JTS VENOM PERFORMANCE]

OK guys this I will lay out in terms that even I can understand

You want a strong motor capable of making good hp in the 800rwhp range then upgrade to JE or Wiesco pistons and a set of eagle rods or whatever your budget is capable of.
but you must have the crank at least checked to make sure it is true, you honestly in my opinion would be a outright dumbass not to do this that comes from the heart.
get a set of stocker heads port and polish them and get a decent set of rockers and push rods, have a reputable builder that is VERY GOOD at viper engines, NO FREAKING SHMO THAT DOES SMALL BLOCK CHEVY'S OR FORDS!!

For goodness sake this engine reacts totally different than most normal engines and what applies to a small block DOES NOT APPLY TO OUR MOTORS!!!
I would pay someone twice as much as normal to put it together than have to worry aobut it being put together wrong and have problems down the road

whew! now that will give you a good strong motor, capable of short 1000 hp burst, notice I said SHORT!!!

Now on to the good stuff

NOBODY can make a liveable 1000hp engine! fukin period! If anyone says they do they are flat out full of poo, making that kind of hp beats the living hell out of the mains and rod bearings. So if you want to be at that level constantly, expect to rebuild it every 20,000 miles or possibly less.
I dont give a sh#t what anybuilder says.
Now to build a good decent priced strong 1000hp engine cost $.
You will need a set of crower or oliver rods, with the crank ground to a chevy journal so you can use stronger studs, and your only talkin a couple thousands off the crank its no big deal. Have the crank balanced and checked for trueness,(this is the heart of the engine, remember this)
Have billet main caps installed, and if money provides a stud girdle. Get a decent cam. this should give you a decent strong bottom end.

But also remember the engine wil only perform and live as good as your builder is, if not , it could take a :toilet:

Bite the bullet , go with strykers, or someone who has ported viper heads before, jessel or crower rockers, and have the intake honed. and get a set of head studs.

you should be good to go, but if this cost any less than 10-12k then find another builder, to have one done right, it cost.
Thats why mine runs on low boost, and will be rebuilt soon

I cant say this enough guys, dont cheap out and try to get the best deal, it will cost you more in the long run, much more than if you do it right the first time.

Personally you need to listen to FstJack, he has put together more engines than most of us can count, he does get a touch extreme but he want lead ya wrong:rock:

And before you start thinking , there are only a handful of viper engine builders out there that are reputable, Exotic engines, UGR, heffner in fla.
And Blaine and I think he is in TX.

Now that covers the west coast, the east , fla, and tx, there is a builder up north, but he takes ten years to put things together.

 

[SrtBrad]

Now to build a good decent priced strong 1000hp engine cost $.You will need a set of crower or oliver rods, with the crank ground to a chevy journal so you can use stronger studs, and your only talkin a couple thousands off the crank its no big deal. Have the crank balanced and checked for trueness,(this is the heart of the engine, remember this)
Have billet main caps installed, and if money provides a stud girdle. Get a decent cam. this should give you a decent strong bottom end.

I'm new to the Viper Engine specs for performance applications and have been doing a lot of homework over the last month or so. I was repeatedly told not to grind the crank due to smaller journal sizes that effects oil flow in a negative way.

I am still learning and want to understand your suggestion. I understand that by grinding the crank to chevy specs you can put in a stronger stud. How much oil pressure/volume will be lost and is it enough to worry about in a 1000+ HP application? In addition to balancing the crank should the crank be hardened again (I forgot what that proceedure was called)?

 

[JTS VENOM PERFORMANCE]

I'm new to the Viper Engine specs for performance applications and have been doing a lot of homework over the last month or so. I was repeatedly told not to grind the crank due to smaller journal sizes that effects oil flow in a negative way.

I am still learning and want to understand your suggestion. I understand that by grinding the crank to chevy specs you can put in a stronger stud. How much oil pressure/volume will be lost and is it enough to worry about in a 1000+ HP application? In addition to balancing the crank should the crank be hardened again (I forgot what that proceedure was called)?

Your not grinding off enough to affect the oil pressure at all, not a drop bo, an no, dont need to worry about it being hardened again.

I would suggest anyone wanting 1000hp to have two tunes or three, One for low boost, keeps the stress off the engine, one for high boost and one for race gas, or just plain damn fst mode

I'm sure Blaine or Jack should chime in, I dont want to give anyone the wrong info at all, but what I specified is just the basics, I put things in plain terms that even Nowwhat can understnd
I willl Pm Blaine and Jack and see if they wil chime in and give more details or say I b stupid gotta go, give my pillow some head, will be back tuesday

 

[JTS VENOM PERFORMANCE]

And maybe I should restate one thing, most engine builders may take offense to what I said aobut 1000hp engines not living the life.
but I have seen many pics fo bearings from 1000hp engines and all had severe bearing wear, its jsut the nature of the beast, it may still run, but jsut plan on having the bearings checked at certain points

 

[Wifey]

And maybe I should restate one thing, most engine builders may take offense to what I said aobut 1000hp engines not living the life.
but I have seen many pics fo bearings from 1000hp engines and all had severe bearing wear, its jsut the nature of the beast, it may still run, but jsut plan on having the bearings checked at certain points

That is because the engine needs to be clearanced to let the internal parts move around as things flex under heavy loads.

Example, usually the crank is ground and polished about .0001 under size ( IE, a .010 would be .011 not recomended, use a full dimentioned crank less the .0001) and the rods would have the about .010 removed each side, and the wrist pins would be modified to full floating type allowing everything to move around without binding.:rock:

The extra clearance will need more oil volume from the pump to fill the extra space so to speak ( hi pressure will erode the bearings though) A clearanced engine will require bearing replacement every 5-15,000 miles depending on use( all out racing , sooner) :nurse:

 

[Final GTS]

OK guys this I will lay out in terms that even I can understand

You want a strong motor capable of making good hp in the 800rwhp range then upgrade to JE or Wiesco pistons and a set of eagle rods or whatever your budget is capable of.
but you must have the crank at least checked to make sure it is true, you honestly in my opinion would be a outright dumbass not to do this that comes from the heart.
get a set of stocker heads port and polish them and get a decent set of rockers and push rods, have a reputable builder that is VERY GOOD at viper engines, NO FREAKING SHMO THAT DOES SMALL BLOCK CHEVY'S OR FORDS!!

For goodness sake this engine reacts totally different than most normal engines and what applies to a small block DOES NOT APPLY TO OUR MOTORS!!!
I would pay someone twice as much as normal to put it together than have to worry aobut it being put together wrong and have problems down the road

whew! now that will give you a good strong motor, capable of short 1000 hp burst, notice I said SHORT!!!

Now on to the good stuff

I agree up until this point.

NOBODY can make a liveable 1000hp engine! fukin period! If anyone says they do they are flat out full of poo, making that kind of hp beats the living hell out of the mains and rod bearings. So if you want to be at that level constantly, expect to rebuild it every 20,000 miles or possibly less.

I dont give a sh#t what anybuilder says.

I have to STRONGLY disagree with this one. With the right set of components, a close to stock-like lifespan can be acheived. The amount of time it is even POSSIBLE to put 1000 HP down is minimal with regard to the overall engine lifespan. Sure, it is a no brainer to replace the bearings at a given interval depending on useage, but the engine doesnt have to come out- or even that far apart for that. With the right configuration and no contributing factors (oil systems on 03-06 cars, ESPECIALLY Comp-Coupe Oil Pan engines are susceptible to oil starvation on Accelleration- HORRIBLE for bearings) you can still get a close to stock lifespan out of the bearings.

Now to build a good decent priced strong 1000hp engine cost $.
You will need a set of crower or oliver rods, with the crank ground to a chevy journal so you can use stronger studs, and your only talkin a couple thousands off the crank its no big deal. Have the crank balanced and checked for trueness,(this is the heart of the engine, remember this)
Have billet main caps installed, and if money provides a stud girdle. Get a decent cam. this should give you a decent strong bottom end.

For 1000 HP, there are many rod choices. Manley, Crower, Oliver... even Carrillo if you have the cash. Grinding the crank to a Chevy journal is NOT needed, and top tier rods are going to use bolts, not studs. You DO NOT want to try and "off the shelf" this engine with Chevy parts- and thats what a LOT of people try to do, efficiency will go in the toilet in most cases. Custom rods can be had in any end sizes & lengths you want, you just have to know what the right bearing combination is. Trust me on this one, with the right setup, you dont have to touch the crank other than balancing and keying the snout. There are quite a few problems with the OEM rod bearing type, configuration & size, and you want to avoid carrying it over into the aftermarket as well. Journal size however, is not one of these issues if you have figured out the way around it.

But also remember the engine will only perform and live as good as your builder is, if not , it could take a :toilet:

Bite the bullet , go with strykers, or someone who has ported viper heads before, jessel or crower rockers, and have the intake honed. and get a set of head studs.

you should be good to go, but if this cost any less than 10-12k then find another builder, to have one done right, it cost.
Thats why mine runs on low boost, and will be rebuilt soon

I cant say this enough guys, dont cheap out and try to get the best deal, it will cost you more in the long run, much more than if you do it right the first time.

Personally you need to listen to FstJack, he has put together more engines than most of us can count, he does get a touch extreme but he want lead ya wrong:rock:

I agree here.

And before you start thinking , there are only a handful of viper engine builders out there that are reputable, Exotic engines, UGR, heffner in fla.
And Blaine and I think he is in TX.

Now that covers the west coast, the east , fla, and tx, there is a builder up north, but he takes ten years to put things together.

This is true- but also keep in mind how few of the "Viper Builders" actually build their own engines. If you go to most of them, dont expect much more than a cookie-cutter engine. As far as the guy in the north, I think I know who you mean... but there are more...

 

[SrtBrad]

That is because the engine needs to be clearanced to let the internal parts move around as things flex under heavy loads.

Example, usually the crank is ground and polished about .0001 under size ( IE, a .010 would be .011 not recomended, use a full dimentioned crank less the .0001) and the rods would have the about .010 removed each side, and the wrist pins would be modified to full floating type allowing everything to move around without binding.:rock:

The extra clearance will need more oil volume from the pump to fill the extra space so to speak ( hi pressure will erode the bearings though) A clearanced engine will require bearing replacement every 5-15,000 miles depending on use( all out racing , sooner) :nurse:

So when are you coming over for dinner with your hubby. We have a lot to talk about.