The Skeptics Thread

[OCBob]

hahaha, good thing I researched all this stuff...I became a Christian because a friend gave me a year to disprove the Jesus of Nazareth existed.
its actually recorded in roman records that a Jesus of Nazareth was crucified, and it matches the time frame in which the gospels say

guys some one disprove the Bible...guess what thousands of tried and its never been done, there are people who commit there lives to both sides of this topic...if the Bible was false do you think it would have been in the news

OK, I can't disprove Alice in Wonderland either, but I'm pretty sure it isn't a true story. And to be honest disproving things in the Bible wouldn't be all that tough IMO, but it wouldn't matter, as those that believe it would ignore the evidence. Personally, I think it's a bunch of stories written through the ages and compiled together to keep man in check.

"Why shouldn't I do that?"

"Cause it says right here in this book that it's wrong".

Here's my question. Don't you find it odd that the only reason you even have a shot at Heaven is that you were born in a country that is more or less Christian? All these other poor souls are never even given the chance because they were born somewhere else. But at least most of the people there probably speak English, so that's good I guess.

And just one more thing. I can appreciate that some have faith in a God or supreme being, but faith in a book? That makes no sense to me.

 

[BurntRubber]

OK, I can't disprove Alice in Wonderland either, but I'm pretty sure it isn't a true story. And to be honest disproving things in the Bible wouldn't be all that tough IMO, but it wouldn't matter, as those that believe it would ignore the evidence. Personally, I think it's a bunch of stories written through the ages and compiled together to keep man in check.

"Why shouldn't I do that?"

"Cause it says right here in this book that it's wrong".

Here's my question. Don't you find it odd that the only reason you even have a shot at Heaven is that you were born in a country that is more or less Christian? All these other poor souls are never even given the chance because they were born somewhere else. But at least most of the people there probably speak English, so that's good I guess.

And just one more thing. I can appreciate that some have faith in a God or supreme being, but faith in a book? That makes no sense to me.

here is where I am coming from...this skeptics thread...which is more for entertainment than factual information. at one point it made no sense to me, like I said come out to AZ and I will just go over what I believe and have a conversation as to why I believe. I am not here to force anything on anyone.
and to answer your question, I do feel blessed to be born in our country. but Christianity is spread through out the world.
My main point is it is what I believe, thats it guys. its just faith and belief. I believe it and there is factual evidence to back up what I believe. but it just like the politics thread...opinions, and we know what they are like

 

[Ram From Hell]

OK, I can't disprove Alice in Wonderland either, but I'm pretty sure it isn't a true story. And to be honest disproving things in the Bible wouldn't be all that tough IMO, but it wouldn't matter, as those that believe it would ignore the evidence. Personally, I think it's a bunch of stories written through the ages and compiled together to keep man in check.

And just one more thing. I can appreciate that some have faith in a God or supreme being, but faith in a book? That makes no sense to me.

Seems I recall in college that I took a class that dealt entirely with logic, and that it was abundantly clear that failure to disprove did not equal proof. Further, if there is actionable evidence that Jesus of Nazareth existed and was crucified, it does not then make the foundation of Christianity truth. Given enough followers and the passage of enough time, I could be a Christ-like character in the future. Although some might argue that because I haven't even been able to get my truck down the track that I am disqualified from such status. How could I heal the sick if I couldn't do something as simple as that?

I digress.

I can admire a man who has found a means of improving himself and the lives of those around him. I personally don't care what that may be, so long as it doesn't mean answering the door to find a pair of suits foisting leaflets at me. What I see in some of these posts is that the faithful tend to fall into two broad categories. One is blind faith, the other is spiritual reason. The former believes everything regardless, while the latter believes for a reason.

I'd like to take a moment to rebut Carlos' answer to my "the earth sucks" paragraph. Simply put, there is free will or there is a plan. To say the plan is for free will is to say there is no plan. You cannot have a god who creates everything, allows man to make his own decisions, and call it his plan. That is not a plan. That is free will. Therefor, there is no plan. You say our lives are what we choose to make of them. That is not a plan. That is free will. Omnipotence is not about letting loose a race of carbon-based beings on a habitable planet and letting them reproduce ad nauseum (especially those that shouldn't), and letting the chips fall where they may. Omniscience is not about standing by while knowing that some of these beings plan and do commit atrocities on their fellow beings. These two fundamentals are at odds with reality. So while I can accept the fact that people choose to believe, I maintain that to do so is to be purposely out of touch with reality.

Boy, do I miss George Carlin.

Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it, religion has actually convinced people that there's an INVISIBLE MAN...LIVING IN THE SKY...who watches every thing you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten special things that he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry for ever and ever 'til the end of time...but he loves you. ..and he needs your money. All knowing, all powerful, just not too good with a dollar.

 

[Azmal]

You postulate about science being able to turn off a religious switch...well I can present the same analogy from the other side...what if some how today it became impossible to kill people in Iraq...would science then accept that possibly there is a supreme power that cares about humanity? (I only choose that analogy since Hutchins is in favor of the invasion of Iraq).
So that kind of postulating seems equally non productive...

I contest that sir; If it became impossible for humans to kill others (wherever), scientists would be the first to jump the gun to examine this new mystery. But to humor fantasy for a moment and say this would happen (we know it wouldn't after just the slightest fraction of thought) what possible reason would any objective scientist have to postulate that it was a 'caring' god, a christian god, or whatever else. They would acknowledge a phenomenon but unless some entity actually revealed itself there's no reason to think it's some sort of being. You could assume with no evidence it was god but it would be just the same as believing earthquakes are just god being angry at fags, in other words people would believe what they want.

God of course could have revealed himself to the doubters any number of times in the past but strangely the more we learn about our universe the more he goes into hiding. Presumably God must have just made me atheist to test my faith... Or the simple solution, there isn't one, or at least not in the way anyone on earth wants to depict it.

Is it not enough to say that the belief in God is a need of some humans and that alone is sufficient to prove the existence of the concept of God? I believe that is the essence of the issue.

Not enough for me of course.

Again, I think this is another example of how we automatically grant god and faith a privileged 'hands off' complex. In no other mental process in our lives would we assume it's okay to believe something is true because it is useful or needed to one species on this speck in space called Earth. We can argue the effects of placebo and whether it is good or needed by us, but we surely can't argue a sugar pill is actually trans-tetrahydrocannabinol on the basis that it gives us the same effect in placebo form. So why would a god or faith be allowed this evasion of logic and reason?

And what does it even mean to prove the existence of a concept? Is that even in question? If we think of a concept of our favorite fiction book (I dig Wheel of Time, some dig the Bible) in our minds, sure it exists on a conscious level. Correlating that to being true in the real world as we can observe it (Anthropic principle here again) is hardly acceptable. We may as well all believe everything we've ever read and heard by that logic.

I may sound harsh or overly blunt but don't take it that way, I'm just trying to point out things that are so commonly taken for granted that even I overlooked until my consciousness was raised to it.

 

[OCBob]

Hey Carlo, the reason I ask the questions is because I am truly interested in why people do believe in one thing or another.

Think about it this way. Say instead of being born here, you were born somewhere else. I don't know, let's make it Libya for the sake of argument. Do you think that you then would have been a faithful Mulsim? Or if you had been born in Israel, isn't it more than just a posibility that you would have been a faithful Jew?

Can getting into Heaven really be nothing but a lottery of sorts, and if you are born in the wrong place you are virtually guaranteed that you can't get there? And what of all the native peoples all over the world that were never even exposed to these religions. Are they just shit out of luck too?

I really hope this doesn't come across as a dig at you, I really want to hear your feelings on these things, as they have been a big part of my own personal ideas on the subject.

 

[Ram From Hell]

here is where I am coming from...this skeptics thread...which is more for entertainment than factual information.

Um, on whose part, exactly?

at one point it made no sense to me, like I said come out to AZ and I will just go over what I believe and have a conversation as to why I believe. I am here to force anything on anyone. and to answer your question, I do feel blessed to be born in our country. but Christianity is spread through out the world. My main point is it is what I believe, thats it guys. its just faith and belief. I believe it and there is factual evidence to back up what I believe. but it just like the politics thread...opinions, and we know what they are like

However, believing a thing does not make it so, nor does it make it any more believable to someone who does not. However, this thread was not about denying one's beliefs. To argue that is to fall prey to the very same failure of logic.

As with politics, there are other factions that believe just as strongly about their own religions. While this may not make them right, or more right that you, it does beg the question as to who is right. By my reasoning, if one is wrong, all are wrong.

Yes, we know about opinions. They're what we all have in common about religion.

 

[Azmal]

hahaha, good thing I researched all this stuff...I became a Christian because a friend gave me a year to disprove the Jesus of Nazareth existed.
its actually recorded in roman records that a Jesus of Nazareth was crucified, and it matches the time frame in which the gospels say

guys some one disprove the Bible...guess what thousands of tried and its never been done, there are people who commit there lives to both sides of this topic...if the Bible was false do you think it would have been in the news

I get the feeling you didn't really read my post. If you truly became a Christian because you couldn't disprove someone existed then I give you this challenge: I'll give you a generous 10 years to disprove that hobbits and orcs didn't exist.
If you can't disprove it, you must convert to Tolkienism. Same logic.
Lets say I have faith middle earth is our true history and no matter how much geographical and geophysical evidence you present to me, I still have faith. Why? It's useful to me and makes me a better person so it must be true.

Re to RamFromHell Agreed; RIP Carlin I'm sure he's smiling down at us now though : )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

 

[Ram From Hell]

Presumably God must have just made me atheist to test my faith... Or the simple solution, there isn't one, or at least not in the way anyone on earth wants to depict it.

Ah, Ockhams Razor. All things being equal, the simplest solution is most often the correct explanation.

Funny how great minds think alike. Your post, in the same minute as mine, share a lot in common.

 

[Ram From Hell]

Re to RamFromHell Agreed; RIP Carlin I'm sure he's smiling down at us now though : )

Aghhh! You're using religious conventions here!!!

 

[Azmal]

Heh, yeah, good stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PiZSFIVFiU&NR=1 Check this for anyone who didn't get my "Smiling down at us" Reference

 

[Prof]

I contest that sir; If it became impossible for humans to kill others (wherever), scientists would be the first to jump the gun to examine this new mystery. But to humor fantasy for a moment and say this would happen (we know it wouldn't after just the slightest fraction of thought) what possible reason would any objective scientist have to postulate that it was a 'caring' god, a christian god, or whatever else. They would acknowledge a phenomenon but unless some entity actually revealed itself there's no reason to think it's some sort of being. You could assume with no evidence it was god but it would be just the same as believing earthquakes are just god being angry at fags, in other words people would believe what they want.

God of course could have revealed himself to the doubters any number of times in the past but strangely the more we learn about our universe the more he goes into hiding. Presumably God must have just made me atheist to test my faith... Or the simple solution, there isn't one, or at least not in the way anyone on earth wants to depict it.



Not enough for me of course.

Again, I think this is another example of how we automatically grant god and faith a privileged 'hands off' complex. In no other mental process in our lives would we assume it's okay to believe something is true because it is useful or needed to one species on this speck in space called Earth. We can argue the effects of placebo and whether it is good or needed by us, but we surely can't argue a sugar pill is actually trans-tetrahydrocannabinol on the basis that it gives us the same effect in placebo form. So why would a god or faith be allowed this evasion of logic and reason?

And what does it even mean to prove the existence of a concept? Is that even in question? If we think of a concept of our favorite fiction book (I dig Wheel of Time, some dig the Bible) in our minds, sure it exists on a conscious level. Correlating that to being true in the real world as we can observe it (Anthropic principle here again) is hardly acceptable. We may as well all believe everything we've ever read and heard by that logic.

I may sound harsh or overly blunt but don't take it that way, I'm just trying to point out things that are so commonly taken for granted that even I overlooked until my consciousness was raised to it.

Me thinks you 'protesteth' too much! You are a man of faith...every time you flip a light switch...proceed through a intersection...insert that gas hose referred to above...your faith is based on repeatable, but not absolute concepts that you assume will continue to exist. Your position seems to be very much in line with those that you question...they believe blindly, you disbelieve in a similar manner. No gray areas...is either correct?

 

[BurntRubber]

read this and let me kow what yu think...buy, read it with an open mind and tell me what you think...gives plenty of hard facts the there was a Jesus Christ that walked the face of the earth.
PS...Lee Strobel is an aethiest...should give you insight from his point of view

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=20930CS&event=CF

 

[Azmal]

Grey area? This is another misconception that usually goes unchecked... That there has to always be a middle ground, and that's probably more true.

How can there be a grey area on whether or not god exists? Can god half exist? can a god 25% exist?

 

[OCBob]

Here is something that I have thought about in the past.

Let's imagine that there is some type of huge cataclysmic event in the future, that kills off much of civilization. Let's say it is a biological warfare event, somebody unleashes a killer virus on the world.

So somewhere one of the survivors finds a copy of "The Stand" by Stephen King. Is there any reason to believe that it wouldn't be taken as some kind of Holy gospel? Sure, we know it's fiction, but what makes us think they would?

Just some food for thought.

 

[Azmal]

read this and let me kow what yu think...buy, read it with an open mind and tell me what you think...gives plenty of hard facts the there was a Jesus Christ that walked the face of the earth.
PS...Lee Strobel is an aethiest...should give you insight from his point of view

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=20930CS&event=CF

Come on man, are you reading my replies? I keep saying whether there was someone named Jesus that lived 2000 years ago is completely irrelevant to the points being made. In fact I expect there probably was someone named Jesus. How hard would it be for the council of Nicea in 325 AD to have picked a guy named Jesus out to be the main character in their doctrine of political control? Even moreover, I could even see how Jesus existed AND even had a cult following with his apostles and such. Many other cult leaders existed back then, before then, and there after. I happen to live a few short miles away from Waco TX... remember Mount Carmel anyone?
But then what? It still doesn't give any credibility to the Christian mythos.

Moreover, if you'll look back at theological myths predating Christianity you'll find that they all look like close variants of one another. IE: virgin birth, healing the sick, walking on water, etc.

 

[BurntRubber]

Come on man, are you reading my replies? I keep saying whether there was someone named Jesus that lived 2000 years ago is completely irrelevant to the points being made. In fact I expect there probably was someone named Jesus. How hard would it be for the council of Nicea in 325 AD to have picked a guy named Jesus out to be the main character in their doctrine of political control? Even moreover, I could even see how Jesus existed AND even had a cult following with his apostles and such. Many other cult leaders existed back then, before then, and there after. I happen to live a few short miles away from Waco TX... remember Mount Carmel anyone?
But then what? It still doesn't give any credibility to the Christian mythos.

Moreover, if you'll look back at theological myths predating Christianity you'll find that they all look like close variants of one another. IE: virgin birth, healing the sick, walking on water, etc.

I havent seen any evidence that you provided?:dontknow:

so are you afraid to read the book?
read, book a flight to come out here and discuss it with me?

 

[Prof]

Grey area? This is another misconception that usually goes unchecked... That there has to always be a middle ground, and that's probably more true.

How can there be a grey area on whether or not god exists? Can god half exist? can a god 25% exist?

Absolutely! We are limited by our frame of reference...which I think we are learning everyday is very narrow, science is broadening it by leaps and bounds daily.

Ever read the novel by Steven King, "The Talisman"... it uses the old science fiction concept of a parallel existence. Who are we to say that it does or does not exist...every day we seem to find things that were beyond our mental frame of reference on the preceding day...so yes, in the macro sense shades of gray are distinctly possible, and in fact that may be exactly what we are talking about.

 

[Rapunzel41]

PS...Lee Strobel is an aethiest...should give you insight from his point of view

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=20930CS&event=CF

Perhaps the above statement is the result of a typo. However, Lee Strobel is not an atheist. He is a leading Christian apologist, an evangelical Christian and a pastor.

(Please accept my apologies for posting a correction rather than a substantive comment as my first post in this thread. You've all got an interesting dicussion going here.)

 

[supercar1of1]

Seems I recall in college that I took a class that dealt entirely with logic, and that it was abundantly clear that failure to disprove did not equal proof. Further, if there is actionable evidence that Jesus of Nazareth existed and was crucified, it does not then make the foundation of Christianity truth. Given enough followers and the passage of enough time, I could be a Christ-like character in the future. Although some might argue that because I haven't even been able to get my truck down the track that I am disqualified from such status. How could I heal the sick if I couldn't do something as simple as that?

I digress.

I can admire a man who has found a means of improving himself and the lives of those around him. I personally don't care what that may be, so long as it doesn't mean answering the door to find a pair of suits foisting leaflets at me. What I see in some of these posts is that the faithful tend to fall into two broad categories. One is blind faith, the other is spiritual reason. The former believes everything regardless, while the latter believes for a reason.

I'd like to take a moment to rebut Carlos' answer to my "the earth sucks" paragraph. Simply put, there is free will or there is a plan. To say the plan is for free will is to say there is no plan. You cannot have a god who creates everything, allows man to make his own decisions, and call it his plan. That is not a plan. That is free will. Therefor, there is no plan. You say our lives are what we choose to make of them. That is not a plan. That is free will. Omnipotence is not about letting loose a race of carbon-based beings on a habitable planet and letting them reproduce ad nauseum (especially those that shouldn't), and letting the chips fall where they may. Omniscience is not about standing by while knowing that some of these beings plan and do commit atrocities on their fellow beings. These two fundamentals are at odds with reality. So while I can accept the fact that people choose to believe, I maintain that to do so is to be purposely out of touch with reality.

Boy, do I miss George Carlin.

Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it, religion has actually convinced people that there's an INVISIBLE MAN...LIVING IN THE SKY...who watches every thing you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten special things that he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry for ever and ever 'til the end of time...but he loves you. ..and he needs your money. All knowing, all powerful, just not too good with a dollar.

Ditto on all of the above. Also how could any thinking person beleive in or more appropriately associate themselves with a system that was responsible for the death of so many that happened to disagree with their beliefs, and were still burning some of our brightest minds at the stake because they had figured out the earth was not the center of the universe nor flat 1500+ years AFTER this alleged Jesus character?

Imagine where we could have been by now as far as science, medicine, and other technologies if so many early,'Einstein's' had not been murdered by these ignorant MF's.




.

 

[Azmal]

Absolutely! We are limited by our frame of reference...which I think we are learning everyday is very narrow, science is broadening it by leaps and bounds daily.

Ever read the novel by Steven King, "The Talisman"... it uses the old science fiction concept of a parallel existence. Who are we to say that it does or does not exist...every day we seem to find things that were beyond our mental frame of reference on the preceding day...so yes, in the macro sense shades of gray are distinctly possible, and in fact that may be exactly what we are talking about.

Never read that book.

I can agree with you on many levels but the big flaw that sticks out in my mind about what you just said is that it still comes down to the idea that it is a good argument for the existence of a god simply because we don't have everything figured out. The appeal to ignorance argument is a logical fallacy when trying to promote or defend something. Certainly absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, it goes without saying to the point of irrelevance and it has no power to enhance a point.

When one studies religion, the more they know about less and less. When one studies science, the less they know about more and more. It's amazing how much we don't know.