The Skeptics Thread

[BurntRubber]

Wow ! Some really good questions and discussion. If I am reading the posts correctly,very few are actually against Christians/Christianity/religion,they are just looking for the reasoning that would make one believe what they do.


In a nutshell ,I believe because it works.Everything that I read in the Bible works.From tithing (giving 10% of my income to the "church"),to praying for the sick,to asking for divine guidance.It has all worked in my life.

I have not been nearly as faithful to my beliefs as I should have been.I am NOT a good example of what a "good Christian" should be.And still I have absolute certainty that the Bible is God's Word,that God is real,that Jesus is alive and the son of God,that there is a Heaven prepared for the believers.

I have no answer as to why God allowed Lucifer to rebel and take 1/3 of the angels with him.I have no idea why satan was then allowed to tempt man.Some have said it was to create a condition of freewill ; that man had to have a choice between good and evil.To that I am not sure.

What I do believe is that God created man in His image and His likeness.In other words,we look like Him and we also have His attributes and abilities.Adam was given authority over the earth and when he ate of the fruit and thus dis-obeyed God,he in effect surrendered his authority to satan.That made satan the one with legal authority over this world.Why didn't God just make another man,one that would not dis-obey ? because the earth was no longer His : He gave it to man,man surrendered it to satan.That is why there is evil in the earth.That is also why God can't just do anything He wants ,WE have the authority,and WE have to ask God's involvement in our lives.

How then did Jesus come as God's son to redeem us if all the earth is corrupt and Adams sin passed to all his descendants ? He brought Jesus into the earth the same way He created everything : He spoke everything into existence : "Light be !" and light was.God said right there in Genesis to satan "There is coming ONE to bruise your head" = Jesus.

Still,how did Jesus come into being ? God spoke to Mary and she believed and it was so.The WORD became FLESH (John chapter 1) and dwelt among man.The Word was the seed that developed in Mary.Science will tell you that a child gets it's blood from the father.God was Jesus' father and therefore he was pure and undefiled by the blood of mankind.Mary only gave Him His body,but His blood came from God.

Evil exists in the earth for reason,yes.Because Adam allowed it in through dis-obedience.It is easy to say that an all-loving God couldn't allow all the evil and suffering in the world.That kinda absolves us of all resposibility doesn't it ? Gives us someone to blame for it all.In fact we are the ones responsible for what goes on the earth.God simply allows what we allow.

Again ,I do not have the answer for why God allowed satan to continue to exist when he rebelled against God and Heaven.Maybe we can ask Him someday.


Jesus did indeed die for ALL.I really like a song I heard "When He was on the cross,I was on His mind".That is true for everybody.Christ came to redeem all mankind from sin,sickness,demons,fear,and hell.It is a freely offered gift,yet it must be received .It doesn't come on you automatically.The Bible says that God is not willing that any perish,but that all would come to repentance.Now if that is God's will,why then are so many not becoming Christians ? Because your will is involved in it.YOU yourself have to choose to recieve salvation.It can't be forced on you.


Faith in a book ? Absolutely ! It is the Word of God to us.While it may not contain the answer to every question that we may have,it contains enough anwers to be successful in life and to obtain salvation.I may ruffle a few feathers here,but I am of the belief that there is only one way to Heaven,and that is through Jesus . ("one name given among men whereby ye must be saved")

What of those who never hear of Jesus ? Does God condemn them to everlasting punishment in hell even though they have never had a chance to believe ? I do not believe that (yet many Christian preachers do) and I have no proof to back that belief except that I believe God is love and somehow,someway ,He made provision for those that never heard the Gospel.

Jesus invisible ? Break out the science books again.What happens when you accelerate an object beyond the speed of light ? It becomes invisible ! Ever been in a prop plane and looked right through the spinning propellers ? Of course you have ! Does that seem like such a big mystery ? Jesus (and for that matter angels or demons ) are simply operating on a higher spiritual plane and they are invisible to our eyes.Ever seen a radio wave ? Does your radio work when you tune in a station ? Spiritual things are very similar.

Yes,I do realize all of my arguments are based on a book that skeptics do not believe.All I can say is,it has been working for years for those that believe ,it still works for me ( when I act like I should according to God's Word ),it will work for anyone that believes it and applies it .


I really appreciate the skeptics questions.Coming from a mostly Christian background I enjoy learning how others really think about these issues.

:rock: :congrats:

 

[BurntRubber]

Last thing I want do is come across as a "im right your wrong, there is no debating it answer". Like I have said, I believe in God...that is my choice. based on my life up to this point, I have be able to lead a better life over the last few years having a so called savior in Jesus Christ. Spending time reading the Bible and learning about christ has made my faith and belief in him stronger. Thats why I said to all you "skeptics" if this is a skepitcs thread read the book by lee strobel "the case for christ". I want to share with people what I feel has made my life better, thats all. Plain and simple I belive in God, a creator.
I will say this, am I stubborn about it...maybe
did I come across as I am right and you are wrong...maybe...perception is reality I guess.
But if I dont belive I am right where is my belief? I beg, dont get mad at me for being loyal to the one that created me...that gave me 2 beautiful girls...that saved my life on more than one occasion...that saved my sister life after she was pronounced dead for the 5th time...its what I believe...so of course I will argue in favor of it.

 

[Django]

Last thing I want do is come across as a "im right your wrong, there is no debating it answer". Like I have said, I believe in God...that is my choice. based on my life up to this point, I have be able to lead a better life over the last few years having a so called savior in Jesus Christ. Spending time reading the Bible and learning about christ has made my faith and belief in him stronger. Thats why I said to all you "skeptics" if this is a skepitcs thread read the book by lee strobel "the case for christ". I want to share with people what I feel has made my life better, thats all. Plain and simple I belive in God, a creator.
I will say this, am I stubborn about it...maybe
did I come across as I am right and you are wrong...maybe...perception is reality I guess.
But if I dont belive I am right where is my belief? I beg, dont get mad at me for being loyal to the one that created me...that gave me 2 beautiful girls...that saved my life on more than one occasion...that saved my sister life after she was pronounced dead for the 5th time...its what I believe...so of course I will argue in favor of it.

"....by the blood of the Lamb and word of their testimony...."

D

 

[TheSickness]

I think where many people start hating religion is when it is used in evil ways. As a bludgeon to pound home a message as the truth when so many things can be disproved. I really have great disdain for people who use it as a I am right and you are wrong deal as well. Most, not all Bible thumpers have an superiority complex. I personally don't care what religion anyone is. There is good and bad people in every sect of society. Just today an Evangelists offices were raided for child pornography...I would find the article and post it but I am to tired after work.

As Tim has eluded to I have personal scares that often I bare publicly and it always ends up in a Titanic Rant and pisses people off. I can't ever forgive them either..But that's just how I am made I guess. I can see how some find great joy and bliss in their pursuit and I do not fault them for it....I actually embrace them for it truth be told. Just don't throw it in my face, don't bare witness to me....If I want to learn about it I would. I am tolerant until the line gets crossed....Then all bets are off as to what you will get from me.

To much history of Misery heaped upon millions in the name of religion for my taste. It seems anyone who disagrees with what their church says simply starts a new version. then mold it into what they think it should be. Scripture is left open to interpretation and that is the key problem...It's been so twisted and contorted to suit everyones view...That it has lost true meaning.
That being said.....Django is right nothing but an exchange of ideas has happened here, nothing has been solved....That's the beauty of Faith.

Be good humans.....Don't screw around on your wife...and Love whatever God you want to...It's all good with me....I love everyone for their differences after all I could not imagine anyone ever wanting to be like me or follow me as a minister LOL...Talk about fire from the pulpit

 

[Azmal]

In a nutshell ,I believe because it works.Everything that I read in the Bible works.From tithing (giving 10% of my income to the "church"),to praying for the sick,to asking for divine guidance.It has all worked in my life.

I'll be blunt here: It doesn't work, plain and simple. Parts of it work, parts that could also be taken from almost any other fiction story, and you pick and choose when parts you already know by yourself that are good and ignore the bad. Otherwise you'd have slaves for example.
If you think Dr. Phil's 'Self Matters' books gives you good habits and you say they 'work for you' all well and good I say. But (assuming there was a clause that said thou shalt put no false gods before Dr. Phil) wouldn't you see a problem with worshiping the guy for it? That's where I'm coming from on that point.

I have no answer as to why God allowed Lucifer to rebel and take 1/3 of the angels with him. [etc etc etc].To that I am not sure.

Well of course you aren't sure, it's like trying to figure out why Gandalf just didn't fly on the giant eagle and just toss the ring into mount doom in Return of the King. The real answer is be cause it makes the story more interesting to do it the illogical way.
To read anything more into it is folly.

Jesus did indeed die for ALL.I really like a song I heard "When He was on the cross,I was on His mind".That is true for everybody.Christ came to redeem all mankind from sin,sickness,demons,fear,and hell.It is a freely offered gift,yet it must be received .It doesn't come on you automatically.The Bible says that God is not willing that any perish,but that all would come to repentance.Now if that is God's will,why then are so many not becoming Christians ? Because your will is involved in it.YOU yourself have to choose to recieve salvation.It can't be forced on you.

Great, so god made me atheist to test my faith, right?

Rationalization to justify an irrational idea.
It's the exactly the same thing as saying, "You must first convince yourself it's true before you start imagining all the placebo effects are real"

Faith in a book ? Absolutely ! It is the Word of God to us.While it may not contain the answer to every question that we may have,it contains enough anwers to be successful in life and to obtain salvation.

"I can obtain salvation from the bible. I know I need salvation because the bible says I need it. I have faith in the Bible because it is the Word of God! I know God is real because the Bible says so!"
Need I say more?

What of those who never hear of Jesus ? Does God condemn them to everlasting punishment in hell even though they have never had a chance to believe ? I do not believe that (yet many Christian preachers do) and I have no proof to back that belief except that I believe God is love and somehow,someway ,He made provision for those that never heard the Gospel.

So you've made it abundantly clear you can simply believe whatever you want. This should prove to you that you already know what's right and don't even NEED a work of archaic doctrinal fiction to live your life fruitfully.

Jesus invisible ? Break out the science books again.What happens when you accelerate an object beyond the speed of light ? It becomes invisible ! Ever been in a prop plane and looked right through the spinning propellers ? Of course you have ! Does that seem like such a big mystery ? Jesus (and for that matter angels or demons ) are simply operating on a higher spiritual plane and they are invisible to our eyes.Ever seen a radio wave ? Does your radio work when you tune in a station ? Spiritual things are very similar.

Woah there buddy! Your treading into the purview of physics now and thems is fightin words! The speed of light, 186K miles per second is the universal speed limit. Plane props do not rotate anywhere NEAR the speed of light. The 'see through' illusion has something to do with the 'refresh rate' or 'fps' of our vision.
We can't visually see radio waves, gamma rays, x-rays, or UV (some insects & small birds(I think) can though) But we understand them all very well now thanks to the progresses of science. It falls within the anthropic principle again. We can observe these things, record them, test and construct theories around them.
The concept of 'supernatural' is self defeating. If god actually existed, it exists -within- nature. And we would be able to observe it the same way.

It's possible that there are things far more powerful and amazing than a 'god' could ever hope to be. Suppose it turns out to be true that there really are somehow 11 dimensions. And infinite parallel universes. The difference with those adhering to the scientific method is that we probably won't make statues of it and make a church about it. Something doesn't have to be mystical and detached from reality to be inspiring, amazing, profound. I can look at the sky on a clear night and be moved in the same way as someone who just had a 'religious' experience, if not more so.

And concerning things we cant see, you could use Dark Matter as an example when making the point of 'look at what we cant see but we know its there' and that would work a lot better for you. Because we know -something- is there or a variable is missing we don't know about and we call that "Dark Matter" and it's said to make up as much as 75% of our universes matter. Well how do we know it's there? We calculate and measure the gravitation effects of other stars and galaxies and find that the numbers don't add up and there is an X factor. More or less anyway

it will work for anyone that believes it and applies it .

It's funny how I say the exact same thing to point out the faulty logic behind 'belief' in and of itself. Just depends on perspective.

I really appreciate the skeptics questions.Coming from a mostly Christian background I enjoy learning how others really think about these issues.

Glad you like it, I may seem confrontational in this post but don't take it that way. : )


I want to convince people it is unnecessary to believe in a god or in the bible or any of the other 'holy' texts that have existed And you can be very much better off without it if you choose to. You can live your life for good, for love, and all that good stuff without it. And I promise you, if pray to your truck instead of your current idea of God, they will be answered in exactly the same percentages as before.
For some folks they just want to believe what they want. Maybe their concepts seem poetic, quaint, or profound in their minds and they'll stick to it no matter want. And they'll use that as a guideline and convince themselves they must do good because the bible expects it of them.
Fine I say, no problem. And if they're a better person because of it, great. Good for them.

I will say this though, I will have infinitely more respect for a person who does a good deed by their own accord rather than from incentive of pleasing a god or for heaven or hell.

 

[Azmal]

but there is still no evidence from you,
I have evidence that God exists...He came to Patrick and told him to create a forum called VTCOA...

Tell you what, you tell me what exactly you would consider evidence. I certain it won't do any good but I'm always up for a challenge.


Concerning Debate: I wouldn't say no progress has made here, and I wouldn't say its pointless. Thing with debate or conversations like we're having here is that it's rarely a reasonable objective to try and sway the 'opponents'. It's mainly for the 'audience' and fence sitters.

not everyone cares enough to research what the claim to believe too so if someone is able to find a thread like this and see back and forth points maybe they'll be swayed a little.

As far as atheism goes, I don't think there have been many, if any, instant 'conversions' to atheism. If there are they probably did so for the wrong reasons. (Ie: angry at god) It's usually a gradual thing. I started out as an indoctrinated child and by my early teens I was becoming agnostic at which point I thought religion by itself was absurd thought fundamentals were 'stoopid' but the whole 'better safe than sorry' bit stuck with me (ie: Pascal's wager) but overall I didn't concern myself with thinking about it and nobody ever really asked me about it. I suppose I became a 'strong atheist' during my late teens, early twenties and at age 22 I started wanting to actually do something to make a change and here I am a year or two later spending far more time than I actually can afford to spend to try and 'save' the faithful : P
That's just how much I Care!!

 

[BurntRubber]

Tell you what, you tell me what exactly you would consider evidence. I certain it won't do any good but I'm always up for a challenge.


Concerning Debate: I wouldn't say no progress has made here, and I wouldn't say its pointless. Thing with debate or conversations like we're having here is that it's rarely a reasonable objective to try and sway the 'opponents'. It's mainly for the 'audience' and fence sitters.

not everyone cares enough to research what the claim to believe too so if someone is able to find a thread like this and see back and forth points maybe they'll be swayed a little.

As far as atheism goes, I don't think there have been many, if any, instant 'conversions' to atheism. If there are they probably did so for the wrong reasons. (Ie: angry at god) It's usually a gradual thing. I started out as an indoctrinated child and by my early teens I was becoming agnostic at which point I thought religion by itself was absurd thought fundamentals were 'stoopid' but the whole 'better safe than sorry' bit stuck with me (ie: Pascal's wager) but overall I didn't concern myself with thinking about it and nobody ever really asked me about it. I suppose I became a 'strong atheist' during my late teens, early twenties and at age 22 I started wanting to actually do something to make a change and here I am a year or two later spending far more time than I actually can afford to spend to try and 'save' the faithful : P
That's just how much I Care!!

Azmal, dont think that I dont appreciate your point of view. We know this is a battle/argument that will go on forever...atleast the politics thread will die down after novemebr
4 years ago, when I was 27 and an atheist, i believed the bible to be a grand aesops fables...just full of so called learning lessons.
Bare with me for one minute...If i believe there is one true God, and he sent his Son to die for me, and Jesus said that the Bible was inspired by God. Than I believe it to be true. I have found a ton of wealth in the Bible.
as far as my offer to come out here...not sure how you got a $1000 price tag.
Pat flew out here last wekend to tune my car, I paid for his flight and he stayed with me, I would do the same for you...you would be closer to a $100 trip.

 

[Ram From Hell]

Tell you what, you tell me what exactly you would consider evidence. I certain it won't do any good but I'm always up for a challenge.

I don't think anyone has put this succinctly, but the arguments of faith and gods are what are known as circular arguments. Something akin to the chicken and the egg argument. (Only with the chicken, according to god it was made, and according to science it is the result of millions of years of genetic evolution.) This is obviously what raises BS flags for the atheist/agnostic. The evidence offered to its existence is supported only by another equally unprovable given.

At one time, I too considered myself a believer. One parent attended church regularly (and drug us kids with), one did not (oddly enough, a nuclear engineer). I attended public schools and private christian schools. Somewhere in high school, I began to feel as if I were coming out of the fog with respect to seeing the world as it really was. Nothing tainted or glossed over, just unabashed realism. In the months that followed, my observations of the world simply laid waste to the old ideas and thoughts. In some manner of speaking, I suppose this would be my epiphany or awakening, but truthfully it was more like a catharsis. I was free of the burden of having to blindly connect everything and everyone around me. I no longer feared for the threat of hell, nor did I yearn for the promise of heaven. Had I just become cynical? Somewhat, I suppose. Skeptical? No, I was downright convinced that what I saw was the way things really were. Period. Know what? I was actually quite happy to know this, and proud of myself for having shed the burden of the need for blind faith. Further, I felt with absolute certainty that I was responsible for my actions. There was no absolution for them, only acceptance or denial for them. I was my own man.

Now I see the world without good and evil, just good and bad. People will be people with or without the filter of religious thought. It just doesn't matter. My later studies in psychology have provided even more insight into why people behave as they do. Even the connections to religion are easily explained by basic human desires.

So similar is it for those of faith, in terms of how they come to believe what they do, that it further reinforces what I have repeated in this thread. Man is as man does, and everything that man does comes from man. He is free to think and act as he chooses, whatever that may be.

Life is short. I leave you with this:

Dum loquimur, fugerit invida
Aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero

I remember the translation to this day.

"While we are talking, the greedy day flies. Pluck the day, trusting as little as possible in the future."

 

[Django]

"....still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest........"

D

 

[Venom Power]

"....still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest........"

D

This is so true Tim. Had I listened to reality and practicality early on I wouldn't have spent the first 1/3 of my life peeking into every tree hole I came across, :dontknow: in my endeavor to proove the existance of Keebler Elves.. I know better now.roud:

 

[Ram From Hell]

"....still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest........"

D

Careful, that statement cuts both ways.

This, on the other hand does not.

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

-Albert Einstein

 

[KRAZYSRT10]

HOLY SHIT! Whats going on in here????

I opened this thread for the first time and some of you guys are SMART in backing up your points!!!!

I still don't believe any of you but hey! I like it!

I'm always game for a little mud slingin' where white shirts don't get dirty!

 

[KRAZYSRT10]

BTW....can someone prove that "paying it forward" actually works? Cause im pretty sure it aint working for me!

 

[Ram From Hell]

HOLY SHIT! Whats going on in here????

I opened this thread for the first time and some of you guys are SMART in backing up your points!!!!

I still don't believe any of you but hey! I like it!

I'm always game for a little mud slingin' where white shirts don't get dirty!

There are some pretty sharp people on this forum.

We ain't slinging mud, so much as flexing gray matter.

 

[KRAZYSRT10]

There are some pretty sharp people on this forum.

We ain't slinging mud, so much as flexing gray matter.

Ummmmm.....Okay. I guess.

 

[Ram From Hell]

Ummmmm.....Okay. I guess.

Well...

Since you don't believe anyone who has contributed to this thread, why not step into the fray and stick your beliefs on the line?

 

[KRAZYSRT10]

I believe that my Government is doing the best that it can to protect the world from tyranny and terrorism. I also believe that the Boogeyman could be real...NO B.S. on that one either! I still jump onto my bed!!!

I believe that arguing or "discussing" religion is a waste of time, because that is one thing that most people will not bend on.

Here's one....Do you guys really think that the Mormon Prophet is actually a prophet? I look at the Mormon church like the Illuminatti....with suspicion.

 

[KRAZYSRT10]

BTW....I know Zeus is real.

Here he is!:dontknow:

 

[ViperJeff]

No problem Kris....

I just couln't resist. You know how us crazy Mormons are

You still Rock! :rock:

VJ

 

[KRAZYSRT10]

Sorry Jeff.

Just to add to this...I have been baptised Mormon once upon a time. I have no problems with people of this faith, however, I personally do not trust this church nor do I trust most churches. However, I know the stories and have read the Book of Mormon and I find it hard to believe that the Lord speaks through this man who calls himself the Prophet as voted by the 12 Apostles or whatever it is called, I forget.

I did not mean to offend anybody that is Mormon, just stoking some conversation as asked and as you can see....this why I usually avoid these conversations because I end up hobbling away due to one foot being in my mouth.:dontknow: