Slow down when reading jeffy, he said looking for similar numbers as tonys not copied his, , so it has nothing to do with a knock off...
Throttle body / German engineering
- Thread starter Arska2
- Start date
Slow down when reading jeffy, he said looking for similar numbers as tonys not copied his, , so it has nothing to do with a knock off...
he already stated it was a ****ty dyno, no need for your bull **** remarks, they were all done on the same dyno therefore you will have the same results, if the tires are slipping on one they will slip on the other in the same manner,, but hey thanks for your bs comment....
ps keep up the good work on the TB, what do you think your cost to produce and ship something like this would be??
geeze what a bunch of cry babies on here if its not a product that there fav vendor is producing then it cant be talked about and should be poo pooed... lol get a grip people the guy likes cars, and is making some mods .. just like the rest of you bone heads wished you could.. so since you cant all you can do is blab about why is he posting, he should not be posting.. holy crap what a bunch of pussies..
geeze what a bunch of cry babies on here if its not a product that there fav vendor is producing then it cant be talked about and should be poo pooed... lol get a grip people the guy likes cars, and is making some mods .. just like the rest of you bone heads wished you could.. so since you cant all you can do is blab about why is he posting, he should not be posting.. holy crap what a bunch of pussies..
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If you would really like a fast NA 2004 RC to test this at the strip, I would like to volunteer. Most people on here know of me and know that I test things accurately and report the results in an honest manner. My engine is stock internally with exhaust and a tune. I have the JTS VenomTB and a ported intake, and have run as good as 11.63 @ 118 uncorrected. I would be willing to pay shipping. Let me know what you think.
Arska2
EU Moderator
Good morning gentlemen,
After weeks of silence this post is picking up steam again....
First of all thanks to everyone that sees the engineering standpoint that i followed from minute 1. Be sure, i dont want to split the forum into believers and non believers. Thats why i tried to show all results that i got and posted it in this forum.
By the way, just to give you some financial numbers.
CAD Design : 8 hours ( each 30 $ = 240$)
Prototype build : 1.800 $
Dyno run : 75 $ x 3 = 225 $
So the investments are already high and the logic result is i have to sell some to have a payback, but as mentioned in my first post profit was not the driver of this investment. And by the way, a friend of mine who does the design work charged me in beer and not in dollars :rock:
Not knowing yet, if i want to sell it ever at this stage or keep modifying it until it outperforms everything on the market huuuuhhhuuuu, hope no one gets afraid now....
Basically aim was to see, if a mod on existing designs would perform - better - same - or worse.
As far as i understand the TB designs, the JTSVP is similar to the BBK,
just 1 mm bigger + some small adjustments. Roe is single blade etc,etc...
There has been enough comparisons on this or other forums
to know figure out which base design i prefer and start from.
So to speak of a knock off is a bit strange. It was just to do a good bench mark and start from a good base. Isnt that what every new design does ?
For now i am happy about the interest in the developed product and the story behind it.
As soon as the development is finished, i could probably think of handing it out for testing but up to that point i would also have to decide whether i am interested in selling or not....
So guys, give me a little more time to think about air flow ratios, measurements and other features.
Once again thanks for the interest and see you soon in this thread.
If anything is hard to understand...its not you....just my german englisch :elefant:
After weeks of silence this post is picking up steam again....
First of all thanks to everyone that sees the engineering standpoint that i followed from minute 1. Be sure, i dont want to split the forum into believers and non believers. Thats why i tried to show all results that i got and posted it in this forum.
By the way, just to give you some financial numbers.
CAD Design : 8 hours ( each 30 $ = 240$)
Prototype build : 1.800 $
Dyno run : 75 $ x 3 = 225 $
So the investments are already high and the logic result is i have to sell some to have a payback, but as mentioned in my first post profit was not the driver of this investment. And by the way, a friend of mine who does the design work charged me in beer and not in dollars :rock:
Not knowing yet, if i want to sell it ever at this stage or keep modifying it until it outperforms everything on the market
huuuuhhhuuuu, hope no one gets afraid now....Basically aim was to see, if a mod on existing designs would perform - better - same - or worse.
As far as i understand the TB designs, the JTSVP is similar to the BBK,
just 1 mm bigger + some small adjustments. Roe is single blade etc,etc...
There has been enough comparisons on this or other forums
to know figure out which base design i prefer and start from.
So to speak of a knock off is a bit strange. It was just to do a good bench mark and start from a good base. Isnt that what every new design does ?
For now i am happy about the interest in the developed product and the story behind it.
As soon as the development is finished, i could probably think of handing it out for testing but up to that point i would also have to decide whether i am interested in selling or not....
So guys, give me a little more time to think about air flow ratios, measurements and other features.
Once again thanks for the interest and see you soon in this thread.
If anything is hard to understand...its not you....just my german englisch :elefant:
And who the hell are you to tell me i can not comment on this ,I also told him good for thinking out of the box so bite me you smartass .
If someone is posting they have a new way to make the wheel and used a wheel to make it what do you expect ,,peeps want to see this new wheel and not just be told its a better wheel ,,I see no REAL dyno sheet just someone saying it was better .If a dyno shop said i could not take pics of my truck being dynoed and refused to give me a print out and no A/F and TQ numbers not right ,how could you prove anything else is correct ,,so mr high and mighty there is no need for your Bullsh!t comment .
Have a nice day butthole !
Arska2
EU Moderator
Sorry, maybe there was a missunderstanding.
I do have dyno sheets. I do have photos of the graph, i was just not allowed to be in that room while the truck was still running.
Here we go.
Before : http://www.flickr.com/photos/85094928@N03/7955912828
Result 360,9 KW which is equal to 491 HP
After : http://www.flickr.com/photos/85094928@N03/7955912380
Result 376,8 KW which is equal to 512,5 HP
In total a gain of 21.5 HP.
@ all: dont get mad at each other, its just a tb, not a nuclear weapon.
All the best
Arne
I do have dyno sheets. I do have photos of the graph, i was just not allowed to be in that room while the truck was still running.
Here we go.
Before : http://www.flickr.com/photos/85094928@N03/7955912828
Result 360,9 KW which is equal to 491 HP
After : http://www.flickr.com/photos/85094928@N03/7955912380
Result 376,8 KW which is equal to 512,5 HP
In total a gain of 21.5 HP.
@ all: dont get mad at each other, its just a tb, not a nuclear weapon.
All the best
Arne
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We spent several hours testing a home-ported o.e.m. (FSTJACK) throttle body against a BBK on (2) different viper-powered vehicles. Both units produced the same gains, which was around the 10-12 hp range, if memory serves. The torque traces were quite similar and clearly showed an immediate TQ spike at low r.p.m. which explains the gain in part-throttle response; something I think was lacking in the near-stock Viper powered vehicles anyway. That improvement was more important to me than the peak hp gain.
When I tried a K&N "cold" air intake, I lost power and listened to a really strange intake sound that reminded me of valve float but it was occurring at an intermediate r.p.m., at wide open throttle. So that sort-of-ugly rubber accordion intake tube the factory uses appears to work and there must be a boundary-layer thing going on, If I had to guess. The smooth tube of the K&N looked nice but didn't seem to be able to move the air without turning it into a tumbling mess. To lose both hp and tq wasn't the direction I had planned to go. In more of a pure race vehicle, a properly designed cold air intake should outperform the stock setup though. There was a small but measurable gain with the drop-in K&N filter.
So to make a long story short: The intake side of the Viper engines seem "touchy" and if Arne has found even more power in a different throttle body, that's awesome !
If Arne and company has developed something that works better than the BBK and the ported unit I'm still using, I think it's fantastic. Even more so considering the gains are upstream of a Gen III manifold which (even in runner-ported trim) is not a very good intake.
If Arne decides to sell these units, I would love the opportunity to try one on a fully-ported Gen III intake with Strikers. If it woke-up the entire intake system, the total gains could be quite significant and opens opportunity for different cam profiles.
And even if the price was considerably higher than what is out there now, the gain per dollar would be quite cheap; compared say to headers...
Rotten (Saturday morning ramblings) Ronnie
When I tried a K&N "cold" air intake, I lost power and listened to a really strange intake sound that reminded me of valve float but it was occurring at an intermediate r.p.m., at wide open throttle. So that sort-of-ugly rubber accordion intake tube the factory uses appears to work and there must be a boundary-layer thing going on, If I had to guess. The smooth tube of the K&N looked nice but didn't seem to be able to move the air without turning it into a tumbling mess. To lose both hp and tq wasn't the direction I had planned to go. In more of a pure race vehicle, a properly designed cold air intake should outperform the stock setup though. There was a small but measurable gain with the drop-in K&N filter.
So to make a long story short: The intake side of the Viper engines seem "touchy" and if Arne has found even more power in a different throttle body, that's awesome !
If Arne and company has developed something that works better than the BBK and the ported unit I'm still using, I think it's fantastic. Even more so considering the gains are upstream of a Gen III manifold which (even in runner-ported trim) is not a very good intake.
If Arne decides to sell these units, I would love the opportunity to try one on a fully-ported Gen III intake with Strikers. If it woke-up the entire intake system, the total gains could be quite significant and opens opportunity for different cam profiles.
And even if the price was considerably higher than what is out there now, the gain per dollar would be quite cheap; compared say to headers...
Rotten (Saturday morning ramblings) Ronnie
So, it looks like 1.021 (Din) was the correction used...correct? Must be nice to have all that good air around !
Arska2
EU Moderator
Ron,
You are right. Unfortunately the weather conditions were not perfect.
Between 29 and 32 degrees C or 84,2 and 89,6 F with 65% of humidity.
We should now be looking at better conditions during this month.
Once i have the time, i will once more go to a dyno with TQ, A/F measurements where the truck is tied down.
I want this results to be bullit proof !
Arne
You are right. Unfortunately the weather conditions were not perfect.
Between 29 and 32 degrees C or 84,2 and 89,6 F with 65% of humidity.
We should now be looking at better conditions during this month.
Once i have the time, i will once more go to a dyno with TQ, A/F measurements where the truck is tied down.
I want this results to be bullit proof !
Arne
Now thats what I,m talking about ,Just saying ,,,go Arne:rock:
Deutsche Leistung Drosselklappen......has a certain ring to it!
(Geez...I hope google translated that correctly!)
(Geez...I hope google translated that correctly!)
Arska2
EU Moderator
Google translator sometimes sounds like a RAMMSTEIN lyrics producer,
but i like that version
And since there seems to be quit an interest in the TB i will move on with
a little thing i had in mind for improvement....
More info soon to come......
but i like that version
And since there seems to be quit an interest in the TB i will move on with
a little thing i had in mind for improvement....
More info soon to come......
Arska2
EU Moderator
Once i find a good DYNO that can tie me down, is able to read RPM, A/F, TQ & HP, then i will redo the test.
Just to make everything perfect :
- what should be the cooling time between each run ?
- what kind of dyno systems do you use ? (we have quit a lot of Bosch system)
- other things to think of ?
I think with some rework to be done i will probably be able to do a run in octobre again.
All the best
Arne
Just to make everything perfect :
- what should be the cooling time between each run ?
- what kind of dyno systems do you use ? (we have quit a lot of Bosch system)
- other things to think of ?
I think with some rework to be done i will probably be able to do a run in octobre again.
All the best
Arne
Arne
Most dynos use a big fan to cool down the engine between/during runs; There is no set time between runs for cool down. If you can comfortably leave your hand on the intake manifold, you should be close to where you want to be. That can take a while...
As far as dyno types go, it doesn't really matter which one you use. We use Mustangs, Dynojets, DynoDynamics. etc. Just use the same one for the same day for testing purposes.
Once your vehicle is on the rollers and strapped down it's all good. How hard a vehicle is strapped down can make a difference in the numbers but in this case, you aren't comparing vehicles, just parts... Make sure you have everything attached (like the air cleaner) instead of the fan blowing into an open throttle body with one unit and full air cleaner assembly for the next, etc. In other words, keep as much consistent as you can. It takes time but it's all in the name of science...
Your dyno should be using a weather station. I am unfamiliar with your area but we can have some significant pressure swings in a short period of time in our area and so its important to check it every few hours. The dyno you choose will be corrected for sea level anyway (SAE-J1349 is common) but you are at sea-level so the correction factor will probably be slight.
Ask your operator to also run a torque trace as sometimes you will see gains under peak and those gains are often just as important as the peak/maximum power numbers people often look for...
Good luck and have fun !
Ronnie
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Kuan505
New Member
good work
Thanks for sharing Arne!
I will take one if you ever make this happen.
Best regards from Taiwan,
Kuan
Thanks for sharing Arne!
I will take one if you ever make this happen.
Best regards from Taiwan,
Kuan
canviper
Full Access Member
I go through Frankfurt on the monthly basis for work and only live 3 hrs from Ron. Maybe I can help out with the shipping by throwing a couple of TB's in my carry on lol. Pretty cool work your doing there Arne this has been a good read.
Pretty cool work your doing there Arne this has been a good read.
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