Poll concerning our PISTONS!

[supercar1of1]

I think most would agree that the evidence is in that the pistons in our trucks

are just not what anyone would expect in a premium high performance 50k+

vehicle. I must say it would have made an impact on my decision to purchase,

had I known about the problem in the first place.

My thinking is that we make a reasonable offer to Dodge in that they offer to

us correct forged pistons at cost which to me would be a minimum reasonable

settlement of this issue that would raise the durability issue to an acceptable level.







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[FATJACK]

Would a class action lawsuit be feasible?

SRT means Street and Racing Tecnology, the TV commercials all touted high performance and hard driving. The engine parts should be forged in a high performance engine.
Total cost to Chrysler for initial build for forged Crankshaft, Rods and Pistons probably less than 300.00

 

[Big Worm]

I 2nd that. If I paid for the SRT that is what i should have got.

 

[FerrariTruck]

The stock pistons are fine in a stock motor. You have a better chance at pissing into the wind.

 

[SrtBrad]

The stock pistons are fine in a stock motor. You have a better chance at pissing into the wind.

Well said Alfredo. I don't like the fact that Dodge did this but it works for the stock engines.

 

[supercar1of1]

Well said Alfredo. I don't like the fact that Dodge did this but it works for the stock engines.

I thought there were some failures with stock motors, or did I read that

incorrectly in the other threads? Also I do not think we are pissing in the

wind, the key word being,"reasonable".



Fatjack and Big Worm,:congrats: :rock: Well said!!!!










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[SrtBrad]

I thought there were some failures with stock motors, or did I read that

incorrectly in the other threads? Also I do not think we are pissing in the

wind, the key word being,"reasonable".








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One of those failures was with my NA 05 QC engine. I had over 40K miles on it when the rod spun due to excessive high rpm pulls and drag racing at the strip. If I had a stock engine with no mods then I'd be on the other side of the fence. I had basically all the bolt ons with the exception of NO2. I played so now I have to pay. It's just part of racing.

I don't know of any stock engines with no mods that failed. If there are documented cases of that then that would be a different story. I just am not the type of person to rush to a courtroom.

 

[supercar1of1]

One of those failures was with my NA 05 QC engine. I had over 40K miles on it when the rod spun due to excessive high rpm pulls and drag racing at the strip. If I had a stock engine with no mods then I'd be on the other side of the fence. I had basically all the bolt ons with the exception of NO2. I played so now I have to pay. It's just part of racing.

I don't know of any stock engines with no mods that failed. If there are documented cases of that then that would be a different story. I just am not the type of person to rush to a courtroom.

Me neither, but didn't someone in another thread say that one(or more) Viper

tech's said there was a comparatively high incidence of stock(or nearly

stock) pistons/eng's failing in these trucks?








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[SrtBrad]

Me neither, but didn't someone in another thread say that one(or more) Viper

tech's said there was a comparatively high incidence of stock(or nearly

stock) pistons/eng's failing in these trucks?








?

Yes you are right regarding high incidents of "relatively" stock engines failing due to oil starvation issues on the #3 rod. Also there are the pistons that fail due to detonation. The detonation causes the 1st ring land to crack because of how close the ring is to the top of the piston.

There are solutions to the problems that FstJack has addressed including a dry sump oil pump, lowering the redline to 5800 rpm, and there is also grooved bearings that can be purchased to help this problem. These problems that you are addressing are relatively confined to the forced induction and chemical induction engines.

Maybe someone with more info than me can chime in on this.:dontknow:

 

[supercar1of1]

Yes you are right regarding high incidents of "relatively" stock engines failing due to oil starvation issues on the #3 rod. Also there are the pistons that fail due to detonation. The detonation causes the 1st ring land to crack because of how close the ring is to the top of the piston.

There are solutions to the problems that FstJack has addressed including a dry sump oil pump, lowering the redline to 5800 rpm, and there is also grooved bearings that can be purchased to help this problem. These problems that you are addressing are relatively confined to the forced induction and chemical induction engines.

Maybe someone with more info than me can chime in on this.:dontknow:

IMHO after reading and viewing all the threads and photo's, that just putting

a good set of forged pistons(180bearings,good rings) would bring the

durability issue to an acceptable level.




Some of you other guys chime in on this! PROF? MARTY? SEAN?







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[HaulinAsp]

What about my 04? All I had was a set of Mopar header kit with the Mopar cat delete pipes, Magnaflo catback, CAI, and a KRC/SCT....... Never heard knock- just a loud boom one evening coming home from work which lead to this...............

 

[HaulinAsp]

I need to take detailed pics of all the pistons but I believe at least 8 out of 10 pistons all have this same deal going on...............

 

[supercar1of1]

What about my 04? All I had was a set of Mopar header kit with the Mopar cat delete pipes, Magnaflo catback, CAI, and a KRC/SCT....... Never heard knock- just a loud boom one evening coming home from work which lead to this...............

YES! Your in, save those pistons and keep them from being contaminated or

wet, your truck is the straw that broke the camels back as far as I am

concerned. And BTW some of us wanted to help you out because of all the

hassle you went to, not because we are nice guys. Post a member near you

that has a paypal acct.








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[HaulinAsp]

Unfortuneately pistons won't help much in my case..... The pistons breaking caused my block to grenade and it is unuseable.

And quite frankly after hearing Jack's answer- to the tune of 5k + for the dry sump oiling system- that is well out of my means to drop an unreliable "Dodge Supercar Viper Engine" back in.

This deal hit me hard and with the doctor bills and pain meds for the missus, I can't see this Super truck being Viper Powered especially when there are factory flaws that need to be fixed to make it reliable.... IMHO Dodge and the SRT Division really dropped the ball on this one.

And for the folks that keep saying the stock pistons are fine I say BULLSHIAT! We bought what is supposed to be the finest piece of SRT machinery Dodge put's out- look at my pics and tell me if that is "Supercar" worthy.......

 

[HaulinAsp]

:vollkommenauf: Pulling these pictures out again has just made me sick to my stomach.

 

[Silverback]

The stock pistons are fine in a stock motor. You have a better chance at pissing into the wind.

Alfredo is correct. The stock pistons are fine in a stock motor. And HaulinAsp's engine was far from stock, so don't try to use him as an example.

And needless to say, Dodge will not do this without a fight, and the cost in attorney fees will far exceed the cost to upgrade every engine in every truck ever built.

You may as well try skydiving without the chute. Your odds are about the same.

 

[Roe Racing]

The very first time we got into a Viper motor was in 1998. The weak point of these engines has always been RPM (small oil pump, large main bearings yielding a high bearing speed, no cam bearings with light valve spring pressure on two piece valves yielding valve float). If you want them to live forever, keep the RPM under 5,200.
When they went to cast pistons in 2000, the limit of boost level you could put to them dropped.
When they went to the 2003+ motor, the boost / load level dropped again (less material above the upper ring land and later, weaker rods).
On the 2008 motor, they don't reccomend modifying them because they're already close to the limit at 600 HP.
The best thing you can do with a stock piston motor is to make your power at a lower RPM. This probably gives you some insight why we went positive displacement blower to make power.
I see no way Dodge would put rods and pistons in trucks that are out of warranty and production. If you want to be proactive about it and upgrade your engine before it gets hurt (if you're planning mods or spinning high RPM), that may be a good idea so you don't end up with a screwed block.
Otherwise, just keep the RPM under 5,200 (even 5K if you can).

Regards,
Sean

 

[Prof]

Here is a message I sent to Supercar1of1 last night:

I do believe that there is a problem with the pistons directly related to the minimum amount of metal in the piston dome. Anyone with any significant miles on their truck will have cracks from the lands to the dome...most will only show if the stock pistons are very carefully inspected. FI certainly exacerbates the problem. I would venture to say that no one has pulled their heads on a stock engine and carefully inspected the pistons for cracks. Under normal situations these cracks do not cause problems during the 36,000 mile warranty...and that my friends, is the limit of liability for Chrysler Corp.

1. If you have any kind of power adder or any modifications that change the operating environment of the stock engine, you are not relevant to Chrysler.
2. If you have ever competed in a contest for speed or acceleration you are not relevant to Chrysler.

Is there a problem with the pistons, yes. It appears to be a Prima facia case...but without a potential recourse. These trucks are no longer in production...and the only reason Chrysler would take any corrective action would be out of a concern for "Good Will". (Most of you are too young to remember the concept...it went out favor, with the launch of Sputnik by the Russians.)

There are lots of comments on Viper Alley (Danger, look but don't post unless you have very thick skin.) about Gen III piston quality. They are the only ones that could possibly get Chrysler to listen...because they are still a viable market, and they have on-going dialogue with Chrysler.

The net, IMHO, is:

1. Everyone pushes this engine beyond the limits of the warranty (except maybe Wifey). Most everyone has raced their truck from a stop light somewhere some time.
2. Most have modified the working environment of the stock engine in some way.


There is no recourse, other than installing forged pistons. Five years from now the only trucks that will not have forged pistons are those that are garage queens, or dead SRT 10's.

Chrysler will not address this problem any more than they addressed the Hurst Shifter (third gear gate) issue. If they did, it would be opening Pandora's Box...the corporate lawyers will be saying: "If you do anything to appease the truck guys, you will have people crawling out from under rocks asking for compensation for 'the gas cap issue' with the 1969 Dart convertible."

Most of us are hot rodders...you pay to play. Sometimes big time.

Nice thought guys but...no way the big guys will even acknowledge the issue, and a court case is just not going to get anywhere except out of our pockets into the retirement fund of a few lawyers.


And now that Sean has opined...my new engine with all the forged goodies will never see 5500 rpm again...unless I miss a shift, the Raptor is going to 5000 (it has always been at 5500)...

But now I am tempted to go to the Roe 10 lb. pulley...just keep the revs down...hummmm...

I just love it when Dan (DC Performance) or Sean Roe show up here! FstJack is pretty kewl too.

 

[Ronin]

This noob voted yes.

Why? If you haven't heard about a previous lawsuit against Dodge, specifically the Viper, read THIS article...

Racing, road, drag or otherwise would not preclude anyone from exercising their rights under the warranty. If you haven't done so already, read your owners manual where they give you scheduled service intervals for severe duty which includes racing.

The gentlemen involved in that lawsuit against Dodge were drag racing and as hard as they tried Dodge couldn't have their cake and eat it too (man I love bringing up that analogy!); you can't market a vehicle as the ultimate performance machine and have it fall on its face and grenade on the track, and use that as an excuse not to honor their warranty.

Mods? I love it when people try to argue the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Arguing that with the dealer is like arguing with a guy whose holding you up that their breaking the law. Once the VIN gets entered into the database and the warranty is voided, un-ringing that bell is a tough road to travel. Dodge would have to prove that the mod was responsible for the failure, and anything that increases the output of the engine arguably places more stress on it and its related components (tranny, rear end, etc.). The MMWA was written to protect the aftermarket who were offering LKQ (like kind quality) OEM replacement parts, air and oil filters, etc. The best way to determine if your dealer is mod friendly is to ask your friendly neighborhood Viper tech. Dodge would be none to happy about warranty fraud but if the mod in question is reasonable (intake, exhaust, etc.) then they may work with you...

Why did those gentlemen prevail in their lawsuit? Might have something to do with their legal prowess and experience as attorneys. But their case established precedence, which is usually the toughest hurdle to get over...

FWIW

 

[Prof]

Just sent an e-mail to James Mortle the Lemon Law lawyer in the case...he is located about 50 miles north of me...I referred him to this thread...lets see if he responds.