To me enlightenment is always just an arms length away...it is the pursuit of enlightenment that urges me on...
The Philosophy Thread - an Experimental Therapy:
- Thread starter Django
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Azmal
Full Access Member
Django said:
My purpose of suggesting a Religious Thread was definitely not to have a death match of verbiage concerning Believe vs. Belief but rather to explore the contrasting views of those few of us who adhere to no belief.
I don't believe there is such a thing as a topic that is off limits for discussion and through civil discourse maybe we can learn from one another or at the very least have an interesting discussion.
I think the path taken should be one devoid of hostilities but polite argument should certainly not be shunned. You've started this thread with different intentions and I don't mean to impose here, but my suggestion still stands.
Azmal said:
You raise an interesting question....
Firstly, it is very rare indeed that someone has NO BELIEF. And without necessarily arguing the point, I'm happy to discuss it. If you are saying that you are an agnostic and don't have a belief in a Supreme being that's understandable. But I'd be quite surprised if you have no belief at all.... I presume that you may believe in gravity..... pleasure and pain, hot n cold...?
Azmal said:
Religion is one of the most contentious an dogmatic entities on planet Earth. It is the cause of more wars, death and destruction than just about anything else with the exception of religion's cousins, wealth, sex, influence, and power. And it has become glaringly apparent on this forum (and elsewhere in the world) that certain individuals are incapable of restraining themselves from displays of rancor and condemnation towards those of other faiths.
Examples of (that type of) dogma can be found amongst Christians who, in exchanges with non-believers, choose to hurl Biblical passages containing references to the eternal resting place of punishment for "heathens". (read threats of Hell). Muslims could easily find similar references to those that they consider as "infidels".
These are the types of things (into which) religious arguments descend. And many here on this forum are very happy to get it on with others in defending their religion....... Sorry, but that ain't happening here.
Azmal said:
Your suggestion is duly noted.
No offense is meant by my reply either. But if I have constructed a path with no exits to the world of religion, and if a discussion of religion is what you seek, then I suggest you start a thread on religion (per se) and I wish you all the success in the world.
As I have already initiated the controversial topic for discussion, if you wish to oppose the idea that religion could well be greatest poison ever instituted by man, that topic is certainly open for discussion. I am only too happy to provide an argument to support that assertion.... If you wish to agree with me, that's OK, too...
If you wish to express your Love for the way of the Buddha or what you've learned from your dedication to the Tao and its precepts, then by all means do. But, if you simply want someone to try and talk you out of your agnostic beliefs for the benefits of your own satisfaction.... Then I suggest (that) you start your own thread. Antithetically, if you wish to express why your way has been of benefit, then your input is most welcome....
But I refuse to allow this to descend into a shit storm of religious argument...
D
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OCBob said:
Nice.............:rock:
D
Experiences which bring the utmost (in) pain and anguish are exceedingly under rated..... for obvious reasons.
D
D
Perhaps we could provide a bit wider focus for this thread... And call it the philosophy thread..... Maybe the concept of "Enlightenment" is too lofty for most.... (Hell, on a hot rod forum what d'ya expect....?)
Everyone has a philosophy of some kind. Whether it is showing their faith by their good works or just demonstrating their generosity of spirit by giving to others.... What's yours....?
If one of the mods would be so kind as to change the wording in the title from "Enlightenment" to "Philosophy" I would appreciate it...
Thanks....
D
Everyone has a philosophy of some kind. Whether it is showing their faith by their good works or just demonstrating their generosity of spirit by giving to others.... What's yours....?
If one of the mods would be so kind as to change the wording in the title from "Enlightenment" to "Philosophy" I would appreciate it...
Thanks....
D
Something different for all to read,
These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down.
(1) And he said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death."
(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."
(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
(4) Jesus said, "The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will live. For many who are first will become last, and they will become one and the same."
(5) Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you . For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest."
(6) His disciples questioned him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe?"
Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered."
(7) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."
(8) And he said, "The man is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of small fish. Among them the wise fisherman found a fine large fish. He threw all the small fish back into the sea and chose the large fish without difficulty. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear."
(9) Jesus said, "Now the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and scattered them. Some fell on the road; the birds came and gathered them up. Others fell on the rock, did not take root in the soil, and did not produce ears. And others fell on thorns; they choked the seed(s) and worms ate them. And others fell on the good soil and it produced good fruit: it bore sixty per measure and a hundred and twenty per measure."
(10) Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and see, I am guarding it until it blazes."
(11) Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it what is alive. When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"
These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down.
(1) And he said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death."
(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."
(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
(4) Jesus said, "The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will live. For many who are first will become last, and they will become one and the same."
(5) Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you . For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest."
(6) His disciples questioned him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet shall we observe?"
Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered."
(7) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."
(8) And he said, "The man is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of small fish. Among them the wise fisherman found a fine large fish. He threw all the small fish back into the sea and chose the large fish without difficulty. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear."
(9) Jesus said, "Now the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and scattered them. Some fell on the road; the birds came and gathered them up. Others fell on the rock, did not take root in the soil, and did not produce ears. And others fell on thorns; they choked the seed(s) and worms ate them. And others fell on the good soil and it produced good fruit: it bore sixty per measure and a hundred and twenty per measure."
(10) Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and see, I am guarding it until it blazes."
(11) Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. The dead are not alive, and the living will not die. In the days when you consumed what is dead, you made it what is alive. When you come to dwell in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"
Thanks for the fine and worthwhile submission, DevilDawg......
D
D
Black1
Full Access Member
Very interesting thread....
Black1 said:Very interesting thread....
A lot like having a naked woman pop out'a the cake at a wedding of Jehovah's Witnesses.
D
Azmal
Full Access Member
Well, I'll consider that an invitation but if I overstep the bounds you had in mind for this thread I'll withdraw no problem. I have a lot of thoughts all around the issue so I'll try not to be too vague while also not trying to blow up the forum with an incredibly long thread either.
I wouldn't call myself agnostic in respect to a god or creator except in technicality. By that I mean I dismiss the concept for my day to day life but when dealing with it from a scientific perspective one must admit that anything is possible and we can't of course completely disprove a god or creator. So technically I am agnostic but in the exact same way as any of you must be agnostic to belief in the tooth fairy, Zeus, and the Easter Bunny, and a fictional character from your favorite book.
Furthermore I wouldn't say I'm looking to be talked out of it either but I am prepared to change my mind if presented good enough reasons to do so. I willing to concede. But what one must understand is that I didn't wake up one morning and decide I was going to stop believing in a god. My personal conclusion that there is not a god is built upon many factors.
In the US especially it is almost mandatory to believe in -something- I think many if not most people actually believe in belief more than believe in a god. You said it would be doubtful that I believe in nothing at all. Well, you could technically say that, but nothing supernatural. but I believe certain things like my truck will probably start tomorrow, and that the sun will come up. But I don't believe in things like luck, I don't believe humans can survive brain death (afterlife), and (I'm sure this one won't make me any friends) but I don't believe prayer has the ability to make changes in our world.
I see those who adhere to a religion founded on a book and who discard that book as a paradox. Though surely I would admit I would rather be neighbors with a moderate level headed down to earth person than a fundamentalist.
My views are also not the result of being jaded, or because I'm angry with god which are views often held by the religions that all atheists must have.
When I say stuff like that, it's not to sound accusatory by the way, that any of you are going to judge me in that way and such, just covering some of my bases a bit.
There are obviously a lot of misconceptions of what an atheist actually is, for instance, those of you who already knew me, I didn't grow horns and a tail when you found out by reading this that I am atheist, I'm still the same guy as before so don't let your opinion change too much. and I can answer any questions too. Religion, belief and lack thereof are things I immensely enjoy talking about.
I wouldn't call myself agnostic in respect to a god or creator except in technicality. By that I mean I dismiss the concept for my day to day life but when dealing with it from a scientific perspective one must admit that anything is possible and we can't of course completely disprove a god or creator. So technically I am agnostic but in the exact same way as any of you must be agnostic to belief in the tooth fairy, Zeus, and the Easter Bunny, and a fictional character from your favorite book.
Furthermore I wouldn't say I'm looking to be talked out of it either but I am prepared to change my mind if presented good enough reasons to do so. I willing to concede. But what one must understand is that I didn't wake up one morning and decide I was going to stop believing in a god. My personal conclusion that there is not a god is built upon many factors.
In the US especially it is almost mandatory to believe in -something- I think many if not most people actually believe in belief more than believe in a god. You said it would be doubtful that I believe in nothing at all. Well, you could technically say that, but nothing supernatural. but I believe certain things like my truck will probably start tomorrow, and that the sun will come up. But I don't believe in things like luck, I don't believe humans can survive brain death (afterlife), and (I'm sure this one won't make me any friends) but I don't believe prayer has the ability to make changes in our world.
I see those who adhere to a religion founded on a book and who discard that book as a paradox. Though surely I would admit I would rather be neighbors with a moderate level headed down to earth person than a fundamentalist.
My views are also not the result of being jaded, or because I'm angry with god which are views often held by the religions that all atheists must have.
When I say stuff like that, it's not to sound accusatory by the way, that any of you are going to judge me in that way and such, just covering some of my bases a bit.
There are obviously a lot of misconceptions of what an atheist actually is, for instance, those of you who already knew me, I didn't grow horns and a tail when you found out by reading this that I am atheist, I'm still the same guy as before so don't let your opinion change too much. and I can answer any questions too. Religion, belief and lack thereof are things I immensely enjoy talking about.
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Azmal said:
As far as I'm concerned, your absence of a belief in the supernatural is just fine. I really am only interested in what others have found along the way that is useful in bringing them to a higher place.... To me it's a job and a way of life.
I hope that you will life fulfilling whatever you may believe...or not believe.
D
FerrariTruck
Full Access Member
great thread Tim
I had an epipfamy experience today. Just to give a lil background on how this cameabout It all started about 4months ago or maybe before that when relations with the boss started getting sour... Ended up hurting my back and have been on workers comp now for about 4months awaiting a solution for my back injury...Well this whole time I been worrying about what i'm gonna do when I get back to work, will I still have a job when i get back to work on top worring if the upcoming surgery for next month will help me...Well turns out yesterday i gotta a call from my boss asking me to come pick up my tools and box because he needs my stall for a new technician...Intially I was shocked and could not undertstand this. I just agreed and said "fine"...
Well I went back to the shop earlier today for the first time in 3months and I kinda got the chills just because I knew what was there for. But to my surprise I could not believe how good it felt to be packing my stuff and taking it home! The only thing that kept going thru my mind was that if I want things can only get better and I will get another oppurtunity to find a better job or career. :rock: Its just funny how we as humans just get used to something and get used to the comfort of just doing the samething everyday... I really believe the hardest thing about change is the first step... I took the first step today
I had an epipfamy experience today. Just to give a lil background on how this cameabout It all started about 4months ago or maybe before that when relations with the boss started getting sour... Ended up hurting my back and have been on workers comp now for about 4months awaiting a solution for my back injury...Well this whole time I been worrying about what i'm gonna do when I get back to work, will I still have a job when i get back to work on top worring if the upcoming surgery for next month will help me...Well turns out yesterday i gotta a call from my boss asking me to come pick up my tools and box because he needs my stall for a new technician...Intially I was shocked and could not undertstand this. I just agreed and said "fine"...
Well I went back to the shop earlier today for the first time in 3months and I kinda got the chills just because I knew what was there for. But to my surprise I could not believe how good it felt to be packing my stuff and taking it home! The only thing that kept going thru my mind was that if I want things can only get better and I will get another oppurtunity to find a better job or career. :rock: Its just funny how we as humans just get used to something and get used to the comfort of just doing the samething everyday... I really believe the hardest thing about change is the first step... I took the first step today
FerrariTruck said:great thread Tim
I had an epipfamy experience today. Just to give a lil background on how this cameabout It all started about 4months ago or maybe before that when relations with the boss started getting sour... Ended up hurting my back and have been on workers comp now for about 4months awaiting a solution for my back injury...Well this whole time I been worrying about what i'm gonna do when I get back to work, will I still have a job when i get back to work on top worring if the upcoming surgery for next month will help me...Well turns out yesterday i gotta a call from my boss asking me to come pick up my tools and box because he needs my stall for a new technician...Intially I was shocked and could not undertstand this. I just agreed and said "fine"...
Well I went back to the shop earlier today for the first time in 3months and I kinda got the chills just because I knew what was there for. But to my surprise I could not believe how good it felt to be packing my stuff and taking it home! The only thing that kept going thru my mind was that if I want things can only get better and I will get another oppurtunity to find a better job or career. :rock: Its just funny how we as humans just get used to something and get used to the comfort of just doing the samething everyday... I really believe the hardest thing about change is the first step... I took the first step today
Now that is philosophical! And you are spot on! Look forward, not back...take charge of your life, enjoy and make your own future!
Love your outlook!
Roy
Id pay to be there for that.LOL:rock: :rock:Django said:A lot like having a naked woman pop out'a the cake at a wedding of Jehovah's Witnesses.
D
I do see alot of people confusing faith with religion. We were born and given faith by our creator. Religion was made to try and understand the Word of the creator, but we have turn religon into somthing that it not suppose to be and some wicked people try to use it to corrupt others. If you have Faith in God you have faith in God not religion. Are you a person of faith or religion? that is something I ask myself everyday. Faith is of God religon is of man, who do you follow? IMO
Interesting story:
Thoughts can be dangerous. Our mind, in fact, cannot recognize what is real and what is pure visualization. If we concentrate enough we will create alternative realities, as vivid as physical objects.
The young monk of this story can tell something about this…
Two Zen monks were travelling. They came to a ford of a stream that was running high, and the current was strong and frightening looking.
An attractive young lady was standing at the ford, looking nervous. She clearly was afraid to cross, but had an important reason to go.
Without a word, the older of the two monks lifted her in his arms and waded across the stream, and placed her safely on the far bank.
The younger monk looked shocked at this action, but kept his silence for quite some number of miles as they continued their journey.
Finally, he blurted out “You know that it is against the rules of our order to have any contact with women. How could you do that?”.
The older monk replied “I put her down when I reached the other side of the river. You, on the other hand, have been carrying her this whole way.”
It looks like the younger monk broke the rules….just with his thoughts.
Thoughts can be dangerous. Our mind, in fact, cannot recognize what is real and what is pure visualization. If we concentrate enough we will create alternative realities, as vivid as physical objects.
The young monk of this story can tell something about this…
Two Zen monks were travelling. They came to a ford of a stream that was running high, and the current was strong and frightening looking.
An attractive young lady was standing at the ford, looking nervous. She clearly was afraid to cross, but had an important reason to go.
Without a word, the older of the two monks lifted her in his arms and waded across the stream, and placed her safely on the far bank.
The younger monk looked shocked at this action, but kept his silence for quite some number of miles as they continued their journey.
Finally, he blurted out “You know that it is against the rules of our order to have any contact with women. How could you do that?”.
The older monk replied “I put her down when I reached the other side of the river. You, on the other hand, have been carrying her this whole way.”
It looks like the younger monk broke the rules….just with his thoughts.
OCBob
VIPER POWERED
I've always dug this part of the movie Dogma:
Rufus: He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it.
Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good?
Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant.
Rufus: He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it.
Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good?
Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant.
Looking back is most always a trap..........
D
D
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Django said:
If you do not look back to reflect on the things that did not produce good results, one will most likely repeat them.
Much like piloting a boat, one always looks back at the wake insuring the boat is on a straght course
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