The Skeptics Thread

jelms said:
I don't think I was misrepresenting anything at all. Science does depend on what we can see with our eyes. Without science we are no better than religion. If I can't see it and reproduce it science is only another religion. I need hard facts that my eyes can see. If you can't give me scientific fact that I can chew on you are not giving me more than tim.-jeff
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Hey now, don't drag me back into this...... What's that mean?

What was I supposed to give you....?

D
 
Django said:
Hey now, don't drag me back into this...... What's that mean?

What was I supposed to give you....?

D
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You have belief Tim, and I don't begrudge you that at all. I was just trying to state that scientific theory can not be viewed as fact unless we have verified results. Without that we science people are no better than saying take my word for it. Religion is built on faith of something, I for one want to see verified facts I can get my hands on.

You don't have to give me anything. Because you can't. I for one need facts that I can see and verify myself.

Am I a skeptic, maybe, but I do know something started all this....

-jeff
 
jelms said:
You have belief Tim, and I don't begrudge you that at all. I was just trying to state that scientific theory can not be viewed as fact unless we have verified results. Without that we science people are no better than saying take my word for it. Religion is built on faith of something, I for one want to see verified facts I can get my hands on.
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I am not a religious person. I try to be a spiritual person. And spiritual shit isn't scientific. It isn't even physical shit. It's metaphysical shit. That means it's not of this world and not subject to science..... Science applies to that which is repeatable in a controlled environment... over and over again. Trying to do that with things of a spiritual nature is like trying to juggle Jello or nail it to the wall..... You can't do it.... There are just too many intangibles.

ERGO: It cannot be proven in a lab or a court of law.......

For instance: I've seen spooky people (my wife for one) who are very intuitive (spiritually speaking) ... People who can walk up to a stranger on the street and say, "Your Aunt Millie in East Hackensack has terminal cancer and she needs you to visit her before she dies"....... Now, my wife doesn't know this person from Adam. But, if she tells you that, you better get on a fkn plane cuz Aunt Millie is checkin' OUT.

I do not know how shit works in the spirit. But I know that it's out there... I've had many spooky and (also) wonderful things happen to me in this life that are similar to what I've just described.... These things don't make my faith any stronger. They just serve as a reminder that there's alotta shit goin' on in the Universe that most of us can't understand or explain....

I don't scientifically know that Jesus really walked the Earth and died on the cross for my sins.... It doesn't really make a great deal of difference to me if the whole story was created by the fkn Rivendale elves or JRR Tolkein's brother in law.... The story of Jesus the Messiah has served to inspire, comfort and instruct me for 6 decades... It has been a major focal point of my spiritual walk. And the direction that his example has set will continue to serve, and to bless and (hopefully) emanate from me until the day that I die....

And even if it's all bullshit..... It will have been a lovely and rewarding way to go....

Now if you scientists wanna continue to try and nail Jello to the wall or piss into the wind, shovel back the tides with a teaspoon or do any of those other things that rely on the natural laws of physics..... be my guest... But, it is nearly impossible to find God with science. Only one man that I've ever met has done so. He's a rather brilliant astrophysicist named Dr Hugh Ross. If you'd like to argue the case with him.... be my guest.... He's written a few books.... look 'em up...

But, those who worship God do so by the Holy Spirit.... Not by science.....


jelms said:
You don't have to give me anything. Because you can't. I for one need facts that I can see and verify myself.

Am I a skeptic, maybe, but I do know something started all this....

-jeff
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I couldn't agree with you more.......

Love ya, bud....

D
 
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jelms said:
I don't think I was misrepresenting anything at all. Science does depend on what we can see with our eyes. Without science we are no better than religion. If I can't see it and reproduce it science is only another religion. I need hard facts that my eyes can see. If you can't give me scientific fact that I can chew on you are not giving me more than tim.

-jeff
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That's not what I meant either. I mean there are things we cant directly see, such as ultraviolet light, x-rays, radiation but we know they're there.

We don't live long enough to see it, but we know mountains form and we can look back in time to the farthest reaches of space to trace back to the near beginings. We can't see a star form but we can conclude it is a process of gaseous matter condensing to the point to ignite with nuclear fusion. I can tell you our sun's surface temperature and core temperture to a reasonable level of accuracy even though I can't go stick a thermometer to it.

Science isn't just sitting at a lab table reproducing experiments.

HOT RAM said:
Now,the reason that I disbelieve evolution is due to the arguments that I have read from scientists that also do not believe it.Using mathematical probablity as an argument against evolution convinced me that creation could in no way have been attributed to evolution.The odds are simply astronomically against it.

My main argument against evolution is in the mathematical odds against life beginning from a "primordial ooze".
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If that's your main argument then I suggest looking beyond biased perspectives. The arguments I've heard from statistical improbability concerning evolution have all been founded on ignorance of how evolution actually works. More importantly than that is that evolution doesn't tell us how life begins, but rather how it, get this, evolves. Goes from simple to complex. So the argument you're adhering to against evolution is referring to is another matter entirely.
 
Django said:
ERGO: It cannot be proven in a lab or a court of law.......
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...but then again, OJ walked on a double murder wrap (the lab and court both failed).:D
 
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just to get my hands around this...

Creation - is biased because we are christian, and say God created Man-kind and the world.

Evolution - we grew from organisms, to apes, to neaderthals, to man as know today...we split sometime ago from apes. this was introduced by Darwin, and became a poplular belief(or maybe just scientist trying to disporve God, is there a hidden aganeda). Just because a guy came up with an idea and it hasnt been proven and that theory keeps changing, why should I be close-minded enough to believe it? atleast thats how some are coming across with regards to my belief.

Azmal - you keep telling us to look past our biased beliefs, are we allowed to do the saem to you. you conntiue to tear down what we post up, I have not really seen you post any proof there is no God.
thats why i keep saying, we believe what we believe. I believe in God, you dont...cant we just agree and go our seperate ways?
 
Never from apes...most theories of evolution cite a common ancestor from which several branches emanated, one of which was the human.

Humans are part of the branch that are the mammals, which appeared some 210 million years ago. We are part of the sub-branch of the mammals that are the primates, which includes the monkeys, apes and others like lemurs, tarsiers and lorises. The first primates appeared about 70 million years ago.

That does not say that we evolved from apes, monkeys or lemurs...just that we are part of a sub-branch called primates.

That is a huge difference.
 
BurntRubber: When you compare evolution to religious belief or mere popular opinion it tells me you really don't understand it and don't really know what science is about.

Thinking that science has plotted against christians or god is paranoid hysteria. It's really hard for me to take you seriously with comments like that. Did you know that Darwin was religious? It was the evidence he uncovered that led him to believe there was something more at work than creationism. He struggled with the issues at hand like many do today. Luckily he didn't look at the fossils of the day attribute it to a global devil's conspiracy to test his faith.

And when you keep asking me to disprove garden gnomes you're still missing the point. I can only hope to make you realize there's -probably- not any of these mystical creatures and that the reasons you use to justify your faith are constructed so you can cling to it, not because it's true. Maybe I come off strong or even mean here but I've already said these are my views.
"I believe in God, you dont...cant we just agree and go our seperate ways"
You can remove yourself from the discussion if you so choose.
 
Its like spilting hairs with a fucken hammer, it aint gonna happen. anyways, good to be alive today. hope all you gentelmen have a wonderful day:D :rock: :burnout:
 
Azmal said:
If that's your main argument then I suggest looking beyond biased perspectives.



The arguments I've heard from statistical improbability concerning evolution have all been founded on ignorance of how evolution actually works. More importantly than that is that evolution doesn't tell us how life begins, but rather how it, get this, evolves. Goes from simple to complex. So the argument you're adhering to against evolution is referring to is another matter entirely.
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Ah.........so ,then you are NOT biased in your perspectives ? I have found through what I have read here that you are even more bised in your perspective than I am in mine ;) :D

You are unwilling to believe in ANYTHING remotely spiritual,is that not biased ?

The sources that I have studied were in fact very aware of how the theory of evolution works.They are scientists and PHD's that simply decided that evolution was impossible from the evidences found.These were not as you (I suppose) assume to be "religious books" written to bolster the faith of Christians by dismissing evolution.

I still have not located the ones I am looking for.I have thousands of books and they have never been introduced to Dewey or his system :D
 
Dewey was a conspirator...who's only goal was to confound grad students!
 
Prof said:
Dewey was a conspirator...who's only goal was to confound grad students!
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Sure confused me !

I try to separate according to subject matter then title .
"TRY" being the operative word,it doesn't always work ! :D
 
In consideration to Azmal... and in an effort to demonstrate an absence of ill will toawrds him. I will offer this further contribution to the discussion to all those who are capable of digesting it whole hog.

For your edification and amusement.....:

http://www.isi.org/lectures/flvplayer/lectureplayer.aspx?file=v000187_cicero_102207.flv

You may wish to fast forward thru the introductions. This debate is about 80 minutes if you can withstand the pain.

I'd just like to add that it is much more informative and entertaining to watch two actually experts debate this endless argument.

No offense.....

D
 
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Azmal said:
BurntRubber: When you compare evolution to religious belief or mere popular opinion it tells me you really don't understand it and don't really know what science is about.

Thinking that science has plotted against christians or god is paranoid hysteria. It's really hard for me to take you seriously with comments like that. Did you know that Darwin was religious? It was the evidence he uncovered that led him to believe there was something more at work than creationism. He struggled with the issues at hand like many do today. Luckily he didn't look at the fossils of the day attribute it to a global devil's conspiracy to test his faith.

And when you keep asking me to disprove garden gnomes you're still missing the point. I can only hope to make you realize there's -probably- not any of these mystical creatures and that the reasons you use to justify your faith are constructed so you can cling to it, not because it's true. Maybe I come off strong or even mean here but I've already said these are my views.
"I believe in God, you dont...cant we just agree and go our seperate ways"
You can remove yourself from the discussion if you so choose.
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that was a joke in reference to you saying it is the main goal of christians to squash any belief in evolution.

also saying darwin was religious is like saying Lee strobel was an athiest I guess. Darwin denounced his christian belief then concocted a story of how we came from apes with no conclusive evidence, it was only his beliefs

you discounted my refrence to lee strobel because he wrote the book after he became a christian, well darwin wrote the book after he turned from the bible and christianty and his daughters death...so i will say maybe he was mad at God and wanted so badly for people do agree with him to stroke his ego...I dont know I wasnt there to speak with him.
 
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HOT RAM said:
Ah.........so ,then you are NOT biased in your perspectives ? I have found through what I have read here that you are even more bised in your perspective than I am in mine ;) :D

You are unwilling to believe in ANYTHING remotely spiritual,is that not biased ?

The sources that I have studied were in fact very aware of how the theory of evolution works.They are scientists and PHD's that simply decided that evolution was impossible from the evidences found.These were not as you (I suppose) assume to be "religious books" written to bolster the faith of Christians by dismissing evolution.

I still have not located the ones I am looking for.I have thousands of books and they have never been introduced to Dewey or his system :D
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sounds like it to me, i could not have said it better
 
BurntRubber said:
that was a joke in reference to you saying it is the main goal of christians to squash any belief in evolution.

also saying darwin was religious is like saying Lee strobel was an athiest I guess. Darwin denounced his christian belief then concocted a story of how we came from apes with no conclusive evidence, it was only his beliefs

you discounted my refrence to lee strobel because he wrote the book after he became a christian, well darwin wrote the book after he turned from the bible and christianty and his daughters death...so i will say maybe he was mad at God and wanted so badly for people do agree with him to stroke his ego...I dont know I wasnt there to speak with him.
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I don't know if it is true or not,but I once read that Darwin was very remorseful on his deathbed for having written the "Origin of Species" ( not sure that was the title) and repented for having lost his faith ? :dontknow:
 
Have either of you ever read a book by Darwin?

Origin of the Species, The Decent of Man or maybe Voyage of the Beagle?

Or have you just read what other people have said about him?

Most of his books can be found on-line...
 
HOT RAM said:
Ah.........so ,then you are NOT biased in your perspectives ? I have found through what I have read here that you are even more bised in your perspective than I am in mine ;) :D

You are unwilling to believe in ANYTHING remotely spiritual,is that not biased ?

The sources that I have studied were in fact very aware of how the theory of evolution works.They are scientists and PHD's that simply decided that evolution was impossible from the evidences found.These were not as you (I suppose) assume to be "religious books" written to bolster the faith of Christians by dismissing evolution.

I still have not located the ones I am looking for.I have thousands of books and they have never been introduced to Dewey or his system :D
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I'm very obviously biased and never said it was wrong to be. It's good to have an open mind but not so much your brain falls out. I'm fairly certain you're biased against people who think they are vampires. Well, not against the people, but that they actually are indeed vampires.

I am willing to believe anything with sufficient evidence and/or good reasons. I'm not willing to deceive myself into 'believing' just so I can continue believing and further distort my world view. I'm very likely not going to believe in something that looks man made. Concerning spirituality I'm probably just as much spiritual as you are but I don't have to believe in a a god for that. And it also depends on your idea of spirituality.

Having a PHD title doesn't necessarily mean squat. It should though, but it doesn't always. I don't mean to dismiss your argument on this notion though and I would be very curious to see what evidence these PHDs used to dismiss evolution. Any points specifically?
Thanks for taking the time to continue all this by the way. It's been fun so far.

BurntRubber: You keep misunderstanding or deliberately misconstruing what I've said.
 
Azmal said:
Alright, evolution I think is a good topic. If you're a reasonable human being I can convince you it is true.
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Ok, from now on I am going to leave the ball in your court since I have no idea what I am talking about.

Prove to me this is true, and is fact. Factual information, not the wiki link to darwin.
 
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