The Skeptics Thread

[Azmal]

I do believe in evolution, but scientific repeatable evidence is not something that can be done with evolution.
-jeff

"The observation of fruit fly populations changing character is also an example of a fact. So evolution is a fact just as the observations of gravity are a fact"

 

[jelms]

"The observation of fruit fly populations changing character is also an example of a fact. So evolution is a fact just as the observations of gravity are a fact"

Trying to take the observation of a fruit fly to make broad observations of the entire species of the earth is a stretch. We humans are not fruit flies, and to suppose that we might adhere to the same observations is not scientifically valid. So the cancer research we do on mice is always applied directly to humans?? We are not the same at all.

I'm not trying to disprove your thought process, just trying to remind you of the scientific process.

-jeff

 

[BurntRubber]

It collaborates with virtually all other universally accepted encyclopedias, scientific & academic books & papers. You man enough to contest that? Better step up your game. Of course if you feel all academic pursuits and education and scientific understanding are unimportant to you, then I obviously have nothing for you.

this would be putting words in someones mouth. I believe science has a tremendous amount to offer...your statement is one of anger towards what I believe, and is condescending at best

 

[andrew heywood]

live and let live

I like murphys law whatever can go wrong will. ego and pride remove me from being humble. however there is healthy forms of pride. helping the old lady with her groceries creates legitimate pride for me. which in turn gives me good self esteem. Iam talking dynamics. sure alot of things sound far fetched when it comes to religon. the native americans had and still have aprofound out look on sprituality very tangible in my beleif. choice and the power that comes along with it is phenominal, one bad one could ruin your whole life. kill 2 people you are a murderer kill 2millon you are a conqueror. perception how Iperceive . really I just go by my heart if it feels icky it probebly is if my spider senses start tingling Igo on gaurd. thank you all for this highly dynamic thread. Ihad no idea that all you gear heads are so bright. very illuminating. abit incendery thats the nature of these topics. farewell gents:burnout: :burnout:

 

[Prof]

Had to resurface the driveway (so it will be ready to be torn up by the snowthrower)...kicked my ass.

I read this thread and enjoy for the most part, the opinions.

I see constant arguments at the extreme sides of the argument...is no one trying to at least foist a middle position or do we enjoy the banter at the margins? Maybe so, just seems to me, and this will probably please no one...that God and evolution can and are able to co-exist.

This is what I believe: It was a divine plan that devised evolution.

If we can step away from literal interpretation of religious teachings, and total denial of the possibility of some kind of a divine force...there may be a point at which we can formulate a consensus (that's a magic word by the way, look it up). I feel the same about the abortion issue, lets get off the extreme positions (zero abortions vrs. total freedom to terminate pregnancy) for the sake of working on issues from the points we can agree upon...rather than bumping heads over the extreme positions...

Oh well, just a dementia suffering old fart who hates driveways here...

Back to the fray gentlemen!

 

[Azmal]

Trying to take the observation of a fruit fly to make broad observations of the entire species of the earth is a stretch. We humans are not fruit flies, and to suppose that we might adhere to the same observations is not scientifically valid. So the cancer research we do on mice is always applied directly to humans?? We are not the same at all.

I'm not trying to disprove your thought process, just trying to remind you of the scientific process.

-jeff

That's not the connection I was making but I don't think your misrepresentation was intentional. That was an just an example that can at least be seen by us. We humans live too short of lives to see much more than that. Science does not rely on what we can see with our eyes or what we can observe in our lifespans alone.

Perhaps this falls down to the argument of semantics/word meanings but I'm technically correct to say that the scientific standard concludes that evolution is a fact. And there is also the theory of evolution.

Natural selection is obvious with even the slightest though process. We all know about survival of the fittest. But of course there are possibilities of things yet undiscovered that we may add to the theory of evolution.

To Prof: God and evolution can co-exist. Evolution and a creator of the universe could also co-exist. And since we haven't perfected creation of replicating DNA and RNA from chemicals yet (we're likely not far off) it's not even entirely unfeasible to think a creator that created the universe, waited a while, and then started life on earth to evolve to us The breakdown is whether it's the biblical god or not. Biblical god says there's adam and eve, great flood, and would have the earth to be around 6000 years old among other things.

There are millions of everyday people who believe in god and evolution. They're taught both in school and church and either side has strength in numbers and they're comfortable just not thinking about the conflicting issues. So in that sense, sure, there's room for both. I don't personally think it's a good position but I used to be pretty indifferent myself about a lot of things so I can't really say anything.

 

[Prof]

The concept of science and religion walking hand in hand requires, tolerance, and a good degree of "first trying to understand, then, trying to be understood."

To me it just seems to be a much better foundation for productive discussion...that does not mean convincing others of your beliefs, it means finding common beliefs, dreams, aspirations and working on those things and developing trust and confidence so that larger and larger issues can be addressed in a collegial atmosphere...I think we call that progress or growth.

 

[HOT RAM]

I think my position on evolution could best be summed up in this : I believe God created the light,the atmosphere,the seas,the land,the animals and plants and lastly mankind.I believe it happened in 6 literal days.I believe that it happened approximately 6,000 years ago.

I believe that prior to this event there were dinosaurs,and other creatures and even possibly a form of man

In the Genesis account of creation it says the earth was without form and void (empty) and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
Some teachers have proposed the theory that there was a creation BEFORE what we now have.This "original earth" was destroyed when Lucifer (satan) and his followers were thrown out of heaven and took up residence on earth.

I will concede this much,that there exists the possiblity that things have progressed from the original work ("evolved") ,but I stand firmly by my belief that God is responsible for all of creation.It was not the result of time and chance.
If I come across as adversarial,I apologize.

 

[andrew heywood]

harmony

the plethera of books and info in said books is infinite. well after iam gone people will pontificate and interpret. please for give my speling. the metaphisics of arisotle, the bible, heres one thats really tripy. be here now. having brought this up. is there any one out there with awareness of qauntam phisics. Iknow Ive been closed minded to alot of peoples beliefs. now thay Iam geting older, I try not to drive a wedge between me and others. I listen and learn.

 

[Azmal]

I believe God created the light,the atmosphere,the seas,the land,the animals and plants and lastly mankind.I believe it happened in 6 literal days.I believe that it happened approximately 6,000 years ago.
I believe that prior to this event there were dinosaurs,and other creatures and even possibly a form of man
In the Genesis account of creation it says the earth was without form and void (empty) and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
Some teachers have proposed the theory that there was a creation BEFORE what we now have.This "original earth" was destroyed when Lucifer (satan) and his followers were thrown out of heaven and took up residence on earth.

I don't know what to say to this.... I guess you're saying that the world was made as the bible says it was, because it must be true, and any of the discoveries showing the earth is not like that, is uncovered from a time of a void??

I will concede this much,that there exists the possiblity that things have progressed from the original work ("evolved"), but I stand firmly by my belief that God is responsible for all of creation.It was not the result of time and chance.
If I come across as adversarial,I apologize.

Not at all. I do have to ask this though: Do you believe that because you've studied evolution enough to understand it and discredit it based on critical analysis? Or rather because you -must- believe that way for it to fit into your predefined world view?

Have you already made up your mind that evolution cannot be true, and no matter what evidence is presented, you won't change your mind?

 

[RedSrt007]

I think my position on evolution could best be summed up in this : I believe God created the light,the atmosphere,the seas,the land,the animals and plants and lastly mankind.I believe it happened in 6 literal days.I believe that it happened approximately 6,000 years ago.

I believe that prior to this event there were dinosaurs,and other creatures and even possibly a form of man

In the Genesis account of creation it says the earth was without form and void (empty) and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
Some teachers have proposed the theory that there was a creation BEFORE what we now have.This "original earth" was destroyed when Lucifer (satan) and his followers were thrown out of heaven and took up residence on earth.

I will concede this much,that there exists the possiblity that things have progressed from the original work ("evolved") ,but I stand firmly by my belief that God is responsible for all of creation.It was not the result of time and chance.
If I come across as adversarial,I apologize.

Dont apologize :congratsIMHO)

 

[Ram From Hell]

Had to resurface the driveway (so it will be ready to be torn up by the snowthrower)...kicked my ass.

For $350.00 cash, I gladly let someone else do it.

I see constant arguments at the extreme sides of the argument...is no one trying to at least foist a middle position or do we enjoy the banter at the margins? Maybe so, just seems to me, and this will probably please no one...that God and evolution can and are able to co-exist.

With all due respect, this is a thread for skeptics. The resulting posts on such a thread are bound to be rather polarized. Perhaps it is the nature of things. To compromise on core beliefs is to compromise yourself.

But I'm willing to entertain the thought, so let's see if we can find some middle ground anyway.

I propose that evolution, as it exists and is observable today, is fact. It can be argued about how we got where we are today, but it is observable right now. I can concede that I do not know for absolute certainty the process by which all things began. However, it can be confirmed as to how man has changed in the last several hundred years, based on his diet, environment, etc. Our teeth, endocrine systems, and body shape and sizes (when taken as an average) have all changed to varying degrees.

So never mind the archeological discoveries that have been made over that period of time, in which examples of what science has labeled as early hominid and neanderthal remains and artifacts have been found. Let's also set aside the slight inaccuracies of carbon dating that science has widely used, due to environmental circumstances which have varied over time for now as well. These are all principally scientific in basis, but even so, they have had an influence on religion.

I believe that everyone, regardless of faith (or lack thereof) can agree that we, and other species are changing before our very eyes. Whether we want to call it a process of evolution or simply a process of change is immaterial. It's happening nonetheless. New species are being discovered, and others have become extinct. It's a continuous, and observable process.

Some Christian groups have swayed toward the more scientific as of late with thier proposed "Intelligent Design" as a basis for accommodating the mounting observations that all species change by varying degrees. Also observable in recorded history is how religion has made little tweaks here and there to make way for indisputable discoveries, such as the Earth not being the center of the universe, let alone the solar system. Some of what is now considered common knowledge would have imprisoned you in the past for admitting you believed it. Religion and science move forward together, in spite of having different foundations upon which they stand.

So can we all stand on the same middle ground with respect that things evolve/change?

I would also like to put forth the idea that regardless of faith, man by and large tends toward the "good"; that the majority of people will choose to do the right thing. We all have our weaknesses and influences in life that drive us to do things that are inappropriate, illegal, immoral, or just plain wrong. However, all things being equal, I think that it can be agreed that man is basically good.

Can we agree on this as well?

 

[Prof]

For $350.00 cash, I gladly let someone else do it.

Tried that last year and was not very satisfied with the result. I talked to "Sealalot" and he gave me some advice and I used the products he recommended...I spent $350 last year, about $600 this year (did two applications) and am hoping for 4 years...so its an experiment...we'll see!

However, all things being equal, I think that it can be agreed that man is basically good. Can we agree on this as well?

I'm not sure that working from shared beliefs in an attempt to get to some agreement is actually compromise. And I think that core beliefs and values normally alter a little over time anyway. So accelerating that process may not be capitulation.

I too believe left to their own devices humans are Rousseauian in their conduct. And that in it self seems to lobby for a divine plan.

 

[andrew heywood]

Evoluation

:burnout: to ram from hell. you brought up old magestrate. burn you at the stake for your hereisis. please forgive my spelling. since last night Ive had the chance to do some thinking. I venerate science. love it. in respect to evoluation, did man sprout forth from some primordial ooze or was seeded by some divine supreme entity. and if such a benevolent benefactor exists is it ok to ask for a 05 low miles comm edit rc srt 10 ram? fun and joke aside, you are well spoken. and I agree with the ethics we are civilized. but in all sincerety gotta stay with the facts. I like being spirtual, produces happiness and freedom. I think instincts in collision have created great animosity, and that over time they have been supplanted. it is evolving and changing, as I type. how can I discount any facts? resiprosity is alive and well. gotta thank my father for teaching me to look both ways before crossing any street. I think we all are seeking truth. I will use both science and faith. have a home run day:rock: ps thank you for bringing up how in not so distant times they would slauter us for a different beleifs.

 

[HOT RAM]

I don't know what to say to this.... I guess you're saying that the world was made as the bible says it was, because it must be true, and any of the discoveries showing the earth is not like that, is uncovered from a time of a void??

Not at all. I do have to ask this though: Do you believe that because you've studied evolution enough to understand it and discredit it based on critical analysis? Or rather because you -must- believe that way for it to fit into your predefined world view?

Have you already made up your mind that evolution cannot be true, and no matter what evidence is presented, you won't change your mind?

I believe the Bible simply because I believe it to be God's Word and God cannot lie,so therefore His Word is true.To me that would mean that I have to accept the Genesis account of creation or else I would in effect be calling God a liar.If He would lie about creation,then maybe He would lie about anything else.Granted,this presupposes that I accept that The Bible is, in fact ,God's Infallible Word,and that I most assuredly do.

I know,I know......the circular logic argument again

Now,the reason that I disbelieve evolution is due to the arguments that I have read from scientists that also do not believe it.Using mathematical probablity as an argument against evolution convinced me that creation could in no way have been attributed to evolution.The odds are simply astronomically against it.

Now having said that,I will agree that there are observable changes in humans (especially in height) and other species.Whether we call that natural selection,adaptive change,or evolution matters not in the least to me.

My main argument against evolution is in the mathematical odds against life beginning from a "primordial ooze".

So,no matter what "evidence" is presented,I can never accept that God didn't create all life.To me, it is like evidence presented in a court of law.It is open to interpretation.

If i have time later tonight,I will try to find some of my books and post a few small quotations from them and we will go from there.

 

[andrew heywood]

to hot ram

Howdy, did you see that magazine on the history channel about rabbinacal mathematical equations in the spacing of words in the old testament? and do you think that there is any validity to the process by which it is obtained useing the computer?....... I bet the shenendoa is beatiful never been there

 

[HOT RAM]

Howdy, did you see that magazine on the history channel about rabbinacal mathematical equations in the spacing of words in the old testament? and do you think that there is any validity to the process by which it is obtained useing the computer?....... I bet the shenendoa is beatiful never been there

I haven't seen it.I suppose that it is possible.I believe there are things hidden in it FOR those seeking .Some have the idea that God has hidden things in it FROM us.It has been around for a long,long time and we are still learning new things from it,so,yes,it is possible.

The Shenandoah Valley is one of the most beautiful places on the whole earth ! I am somewhat biased I guess,but it is still true

There is so much rich history surrounding this area : from the Native Americans,the Settlers,Colonials,home of presidents,Civil War battlefields,the Shenandoah River ,and the Shenandoah National Park (my great- grandparents and grandparents lived there before the park was formed).And then there is the beauty of the mountains.What a beautiful place to live !

I have been to Cali twice,once to LA and once to Fort Irwin.I plan to visit again next summer or 2010 .I was there all too briefly and thought it was a great place and beautiful,but this will always be home to me.

 

[andrew heywood]

his story

history broken into two words his story, they dragged him through the streets, threw rocks at him, tried to brake his bones, punched a crown of thorns on his head, and hammerd his extremities to a cross. for all of us. pain so excruciating pain, that I will never fathom. makes any pain I go throgh seem very minimal. wow, I will check out the south before the east coast. we have a mountain range called the high sierras,unreal. but ya gotta see yosemite,kings canyon,and sequoia national park. giant redwoods been around for thousands of years..... have a home run night :burnout:

 

[Ram From Hell]

Tried that last year and was not very satisfied with the result. I talked to "Sealalot" and he gave me some advice and I used the products he recommended...I spent $350 last year, about $600 this year (did two applications) and am hoping for 4 years...so its an experiment...we'll see!

I could have done it a bit better myself, but time is worth more to me at this point.

I too believe left to their own devices humans are Rousseauian in their conduct.

Jean-Jacques said and did quite a lot. What specifically are you referring to here?

 

[jelms]

That's not the connection I was making but I don't think your misrepresentation was intentional. That was an just an example that can at least be seen by us. We humans live too short of lives to see much more than that. Science does not rely on what we can see with our eyes or what we can observe in our lifespans alone.

I don't think I was misrepresenting anything at all. Science does depend on what we can see with our eyes. Without science we are no better than religion. If I can't see it and reproduce it science is only another religion. I need hard facts that my eyes can see. If you can't give me scientific fact that I can chew on you are not giving me more than tim.

-jeff