The Skeptics Thread

[HOT RAM]

When I see it than I will BELIEVE. I have been attended Catholic School an the way it was set up is rough and yes there are many teachings out there and the hard part is knowing who to believe. Some answers would help everyone. But what if we did get an answer one and it proved that there was no GOD. What would MAN do then?

When you see,you don't have to believe,it just
"is"


Believing is for the things we can't see.


I no longer have to believe,now I KNOW.I have experienced things and seen things that proved beyond any doubt that God is real and His Word works.
It would take me weeks to type them here ( I use the "HUNT & PECK" method),so I will just say that I can never dis-believe .To the skeptics I will say this : it took lots of reading and lots of faith BEFORE I had these experiences.I don't expect it to change your opinion,again just giving a first hand example to further the discussion.

 

[Ram From Hell]

Since this thread was left open to debate and friendly dis-agreement........

I believe the Bible and I take it quite literally.I am not a perfect Christian,but I do believe in forgiveness if we only ask for it.

As far as the Bible being accurate,literal, and relevant for today ,I simply trust it when it says "I will preserve My Word blameless" .Now some Christians do not even believe the Bible.It plainly says in the book of John that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was God.I simply can't separate God from his Word.The most basic way to know God is through His Word.

If I were to look at the so-called modern Bible translations and so-called Christian churches and so-called Christian doctrine,I would certainly be skeptical ,too.The answer is to read what it says for yourself.You have no right to believe based on what I say about it or based on what anyone else says about it.


Science and faith are not mutually exclusive of each other.The Bible says that God balanced the earth with one grain of sand and one drop of water ,so God must be a mathmetician.I have been told that you can prove/ dis-prove nearly anything by mathmatics.It is a fascinating subject to me.

For me,I am very skeptical of the theory of evolution.To me,it seems very far-fetched.I have a much easier time believing that if there is a creation,there MUST be a Creator.I am not slamming ANYONE that subscribes to the evolutionist view,just saying I am skeptical of it. I guess it would depend on your upbringing and education.


Just a few of my thoughts to further the discussion.

Thanks for your contributions. It is helpful in the analysis of this subject to get the perspectives of those of faith. I would greatly appreciate hearing more about why you believe vs. what. Not only is it more interesting, but more telling. What you believe can be debated until the cows come home, but why you believe is personal and informative.

Forgiveness: Most of mankind will forgive you if they believe you to be a genuinely good person.

The Bible: You are right to judge The Bible as a road map, rather than believe it in a literal sense.

Science: Science and religion may not be mutually exclusive, however pure science and religion often are. Religion is still being used in the place of hard, observable, scientific evidence (see religion vs. carbon dating). Religion has repeatedly back-stepped throughout history to accommodate what is no longer incontrovertible (see Earth at the center of the universe). Intelligent design is a great example of how religion is attempting to keep step with science, and bridge the gap for people smart enough to understand evolution but unwilling to part with the teaching of The Bible. How's that for irony? Religion itself is evolving.

What will religion be in another hundred years, if we are able to get through our relatively primitive habit of killing each other in its name, that is. How will religion adapt?

 

[Cudajon]

Since this thread was left open to debate and friendly dis-agreement........

I believe the Bible and I take it quite literally.I am not a perfect Christian,but I do believe in forgiveness if we only ask for it.

As far as the Bible being accurate,literal, and relevant for today ,I simply trust it when it says "I will preserve My Word blameless" .Now some Christians do not even believe the Bible.It plainly says in the book of John that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was God.I simply can't separate God from his Word.The most basic way to know God is through His Word.

If I were to look at the so-called modern Bible translations and so-called Christian churches and so-called Christian doctrine,I would certainly be skeptical ,too.The answer is to read what it says for yourself.You have no right to believe based on what I say about it or based on what anyone else says about it.


Science and faith are not mutually exclusive of each other.The Bible says that God balanced the earth with one grain of sand and one drop of water ,so God must be a mathmetician.I have been told that you can prove/ dis-prove nearly anything by mathmatics.It is a fascinating subject to me.

For me,I am very skeptical of the theory of evolution.To me,it seems very far-fetched.I have a much easier time believing that if there is a creation,there MUST be a Creator.I am not slamming ANYONE that subscribes to the evolutionist view,just saying I am skeptical of it. I guess it would depend on your upbringing and education.


Just a few of my thoughts to further the discussion

I appreciate your contribution to the thread as well. I really have an interest in religion.

However: Islamic extremists have hi-jacked their religion and want to destroy. I was not there but I imagine the South Americans felt the same pressures during the inquisition. Also, what of all these churches that spout hate-speak like Jeremiah Wrights... I don't get it.

Therefore: I am skeptical in the positive aspects religion brings that cannot be found in the morality of a person with good character inherently.

 

[Ram From Hell]

When I see it than I will BELIEVE. I have been attended Catholic School an the way it was set up is rough and yes there are many teachings out there and the hard part is knowing who to believe. Some answers would help everyone. But what if we did get an answer one and it proved that there was no GOD. What would MAN do then?

Indeed. Why would you feel compelled to trust priests from the same ilk as those who have been convicted of heinous crimes?

Oh, and you beat me to that last question.

 

[HOT RAM]

Why do I believe ? At first because I was taught to.Then I read the book for myself,spent time in prayer,and got to the point of doing what the Bible said.I preached,taught,and prayed for people.I saw with my own eyes people change their lives that looked hopeless.I saw with my own eyes sick people healed when I prayed for them.I have asked for things in prayer and faith and saw it come into my life.That is why I now believe.I put it to work and it produced the results that it said it would.

Now some will still choose to not believe even in the face of eyewitness accounts of it (the Bible) being real,literal and quite relevant.I can change no mans mind through argument or persuasion.I do not hold any animosity towards those that still are skeptical.Just explaining WHY I believe.

( I am not now living this life the way that I KNOW that I should,however I still KNOW that it is real )

 

[jelms]

Why do I believe ? At first because I was taught to.Then I read the book for myself,spent time in prayer,and got to the point of doing what the Bible said.I preached,taught,and prayed for people.I saw with my own eyes people change their lives that looked hopeless.I saw with my own eyes sick people healed when I prayed for them.I have asked for things in prayer and faith and saw it come into my life.That is why I now believe.I put it to work and it produced the results that it said it would.

Now some will still choose to not believe even in the face of eyewitness accounts of it (the Bible) being real,literal and quite relevant.I can change no mans mind through argument or persuasion.I do not hold any animosity towards those that still are skeptical.Just explaining WHY I believe.

( I am not now living this life the way that I KNOW that I should,however I still KNOW that it is real )

This tread is rather interesting to me. I've read everything so far but have decided to try to stay out of it like Tim's thread, but I only wanted to make one observation on Nelson's comment. I by no means discount the people that believe in the power of prayer, (but I for one that does not pray) have witnessed people that I care about and talked to about how I wished they got better get better. I have also had the same happen in the opposite. People I really wanted to get well have died.. You can't tell me everyone that gets prayed for gets better... So what good does praying do??? Maybe I am being simple on this one.... And I am not attacking anyone's beliefs as I would hope no one would do to me......

-jeff

 

[Django]

Whether God exists or not, I have discovered that dedication to dwelling in His presence can develope love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance and many other fine attributes in a person.

Even if I am wrong in believing in Him, the results have still made it worthwhile....... So, I continue to persue Him...........

It is regrettable that religious people have all but destroyed man's perception of an imminently honorable endeavor.

Peace.

D

 

[jelms]

Whether God exists or not, I have discovered that dedication to dwelling in His presence can develope love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance and many other fine attributes in a person.

Even if I am wrong in believing in Him, the results have still made it worthwhile....... So, I continue to persue Him...........

It is regrettable that religious people have all but destroyed man's perception of an imminently honorable endeavor.

Peace.

D

I would ask Tim, because I respect you a ton, can not someone like myself or others that might not dwell in "His Presence" also gain those virtuous attributes???? I believe that all the traits you listed above I can speak to other than faith... My faith is much different than yours or most peoples here.

-jeff

 

[Ram From Hell]

Why do I believe ? At first because I was taught to.Then I read the book for myself,spent time in prayer,and got to the point of doing what the Bible said.I preached,taught,and prayed for people.I saw with my own eyes people change their lives that looked hopeless.I saw with my own eyes sick people healed when I prayed for them.I have asked for things in prayer and faith and saw it come into my life.That is why I now believe.I put it to work and it produced the results that it said it would.

Now some will still choose to not believe even in the face of eyewitness accounts of it (the Bible) being real,literal and quite relevant.I can change no mans mind through argument or persuasion.I do not hold any animosity towards those that still are skeptical.Just explaining WHY I believe.

( I am not now living this life the way that I KNOW that I should,however I still KNOW that it is real )

You have faith? You're not even running a blower on stock internals.

Thanks again for sharing, man. Definitely appreciate hearing why you believe.

I sincerely hope no one responds with anything but gratitude here.

It can be reasoned that personal experiences make for a strong sense of faith. The connection of a perceived causality between faith and action can be very powerful. Faith healers have always drawn big audiences of hard core believers, but witnessing something first hand is a strong motivator.

Curious though how you state that you can change no man's mind through argument or persuasion. If you have a chance, I'd like to hear you elaborate on that.

 

[Ram From Hell]

Whether God exists or not, I have discovered that dedication to dwelling in His presence can develope love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance and many other fine attributes in a person.

Even if I am wrong in believing in Him, the results have still made it worthwhile....... So, I continue to persue Him...........

It is regrettable that religious people have all but destroyed man's perception of an imminently honorable endeavor.

I get from D that it's much more about spirituality than the religion for him.

Perhaps you could clue us in as to what inspired you to think this way.

 

[Django]

I would ask Tim, because I respect you a ton, can not someone like myself or others that might not dwell in "His Presence" also gain those virtuous attributes???? I believe that all the traits you listed above I can speak to other than faith... My faith is much different than yours or most peoples here.

-jeff

I believe that God is not a respecter of persons. That is to say that what He will do for someone who believes in Him He must do even for those who do NOT believe.....

I'm a real spiritual pragmatist. I don't believe that anyone has a watts line to the Almighty. Those who persue that which is good and fair and honest are engaging life at the top of the game....

For me, God and good are inseparable. He who persues one gets both... whether they believe in a Supreme Consciousness, or in God or in nothing at all...

D

 

[Django]

I get from D that it's much more about spirituality than the religion for him.

Perhaps you could clue us in as to what inspired you to think this way.

I refused to throw the baby out with the bath water......

D

 

[Azmal]

Funny thing with religion and faith is that it requires you to submit to the concept. So you have to sort of convince yourself it's true before it works.

Re: Evolution is far fetched: I also think that if literally anyone studies the concept to any degree will agree that evolution is an absolute fact; complex life arises from simple. I can make an article on evolution if anyone cares enough for me to spend the time to do so, or a good wiki or google search will yield a plethora of data. make sure you're not looking at creationist or atheist websites either, just go for the encyclopedic data that has been accumulated. There are of course different theories of just how exactly evolution has worked these millions of years with Darwinian Natural Selection being the primary contender and even if someone finds something new, it will not rule out all that we already know about that particular field. (IE when we drop a rock repeatedly we confirm gravity. When we 'drop' a balloon and it doesn't fall, it's not that gravity isn't working, its that there is an exception (though I hate to say exception since it's actually the heavier adjacent air that falls around the balloon and pushes the balloon up) Point being we don't reinvent the theory of gravity when we learn something new)

I personally perceive spiritual experiences to be a weak argument along with prayer and I'll tell you why. I think prayer is purely psychological. And we could debate if the placebo effects are worth believing in or not but what matters to me is if it is true. When a person prays and prays and nothing happens, they can attribute it to 'it's not in His plan' 'I'm not ready for that yet' and so on so think of all the things that weren't ever answered and mount them against the things that were answered

Let's do a thought experiment on this.
If you were to pray every day to be able to have a glass of milk every morning, to not run out of gas on the way to work,

And if we think about the things usually prayed for such as an acquaintance to get better, a raise, good grades, safety, to win the war, you'll find these things are more hit and miss. Nothing outside probability.

Now if we imagine praying for something like winning the lottery, healing cancer or better yet, healing an amputee, or having the power of flight or walking on water. Clearly one should realize these things are drastically less improbable.

It all correlates to mathematical probability. It pays to mention that the rare winner of the lottery will have a 'spiritual experience' and attribute his win to prayer. The good things will always stick out in the minds and embrace their faith while the unanswered prayers fall idly as part of God's plan.
So basically, there isn't a single thing done through prayer that couldn't have been done without it.

"God helps those who help themselves." Good ole Ben. That's metaphoric of course since Franklin wasn't a theist. You won't get anywhere no matter how hard you pray if you do nothing. It's all up to you.

Christopher Hitchens makes this challenge:
"Name a noble act made by any non-religious person that cannot be made by any religious person. Name a wicked act made by any religious person that cannot be made by any non-religious person."

It is true that many can benefit from a belief even if it is false. If you are one to subscribe to that view as being important then that is your choice. The thing is, at least from my outlook, is that it's unnecessary. Religion/god can be a crutch but at the same time it's generally the faithful that tell us we need a crutch in the first place.

To me, the most important thing is whether it is true or not. And I feel it is a better character builder to do good deeds by one's own will rather than to be swayed by the fear of hell and the promise of heaven. You don't -need- to believe in a god to do what's right. We're social beings with empathy and it's obviously counterproductive to society to go bomb a bus (unless religion or other medical illness has infected the mind) if we imagine being stolen from ourselves we are less likely to steal from others. If we imagine a loved one murdered, we are less likely to murder someone else's loved ones. I'm genuinely glad that noone here has said that 'Morality can only come from a God' but sadly among fundamental groups that is the common view.

In Django's case, I don't believe Tim's perspective is a bad one but I would say it's unnecessary to attach said 'fine attributes in a person' to a mystical and supernatural stigma. All these fine attributes can be found in any religion or lack thereof. More power too him for seeing religion for what it is of course.

I tend to skip around when making longer posts and got interrupted a few times and I'm short on time so I may have missed some spots but hopefully what I said makes sense.

 

[Azmal]

Keep the baby, toss the water, eh? ; )

 

[jelms]

I believe that God is not a respecter of persons. That is to say that what He will do for someone who believes in Him He must do even for those who do NOT believe.....

I'm a real spiritual pragmatist. I don't believe that anyone has a watts line to the Almighty. Those who persue that which is good and fair and honest are engaging life at the top of the game....

For me, God and good are inseparable. He who persues one gets both... whether they believe in a Supreme Consciousness, or in God or in nothing at all...

D

I would admit we might not be too far apart in principal. Being a scientific person that wants facts I also believe there might be a higher power that has set our universe in motion.... You might believe that God said let there be light, I believe that a force generated our universe and many others.

I for one believe in being good. We are only here for a micro second in time. Being good to each other is what we should do.

-jeff

 

[Django]

I love Christopher Hitchins for his intellect and his down to earth sense of reason. Christopher's brother says he's full'a shit.... Which ever is true, it's always credible to quote him.....

You seem to keep referring to religion when responding to my comments. What you may not be aware of is that you are preaching to the choir. I abhor religion and virtually everything associated with it. Religion is a self worshipping entity, a pagan practice which puts mankind in bondage instead of setting it free.....

So you can call religion a crutch or attempt to denigrate prayer all you want. It doesn't affect me in the least, because I'm not telling you to do or act or respond to anything. I'm merely sharing my experience. I am entirely indifferent to what you believe or don't believe.... I really could care less... Your life is your own and I have no desire to alter that in even the slightest way..... It's none of my bloody business....

But since you have initiated a thread on skepticism, I figured that you were welcoming of an viewpoint that differs from yours.

Peace,

D

 

[Django]

I would admit we might not be too far apart in principal. Being a scientific person that wants facts I also believe there might be a higher power that has set our universe in motion.... You might believe that God said let there be light, I believe that a force generated our universe and many others.

I for one believe in being good. We are only here for a micro second in time. Being good to each other is what we should do.

-jeff

I don't know if God said "let ther be light" or "Light be...!" or hey Django, flip the fkn switch will ya"... I was not there and neither was any swingin' dick in this place.... It's a most likely some kind'a cosmic metaphor.

All I know is that all the shit that mankind hasn't fkd up yet: The Universe, planetary rotation, gravity, tides, species populating the earth, rain, snow, oceans, plant life, anatomy, DNA.. All this shit is so well made and works so awesomely that some kind of intelligent Entity had to have designed it.....

To me, it's far less credible to presume that it got it here all by itself...

Azmal.... Say Hi to Christopher for me..... Tell him Django says hey...!

D

 

[jelms]

I don't know if God said "let ther be light" or "Light be...!" or hey Django, flip the fkn switch will ya"... I was not there and neither was any swingin' dick in this place.... It's a most likely some kind'a cosmic metaphor.

All I know is that all the shit that mankind hasn't fkd up yet: The Universe, planetary rotation, gravity, tides, species populating the earth, rain, snow, oceans, plant life, anatomy, DNA.. All this shit is so well made and works so awesomely that some kind of intelligent Entity had to have designed it.....

To me, it's far less credible to presume that it got it here all by itself...

Azmal.... Say Hi to Christopher for me..... Tell him Django says hey...!

D

Well Tim with all you have said we might not be too far off. I for one believe in a grand creator that set this all in motion. Some believe he is still here saving people and listening to prayers. I'm not of that ilk.

Maybe I should move over to your thread on the topic.....

-jeff

 

[Django]

Well Tim with all you have said we might not be too far off. I for one believe in a grand creator that set this all in motion. Some believe he is still here saving people and listening to prayers. I'm not of that ilk.

Maybe I should move over to your thread on the topic.....

-jeff

Jeff, the idea of being saved or not saved is a religious issue not a spiritual one.

I don't believe in the same kinds of prayers that many do. But, I do respect the concept of people who want to talk to God. Many times folks have very selfish prayers... asking for help or asking for a job, healing or wisdom... whatever... and I think that's OK, too.... I think someone hears them. Results may vary

But moreover, I believe in living in a manner that consistently maintains communication every second of the day.... Like never being alone... separate but together.... lol...kinda like that crazy Irish bastard in Braveheart.

But you do what works for you..... Cuz I admit it... I'm fkn crazy to live like this.....

D

 

[jelms]

Jeff, the idea of being saved or not saved is a religious issue not a spiritual one.

I don't believe in the same kinds of prayers that many do. But, I do respect the concept of people who want to talk to God. Many times folks have very selfish prayers... asking for help or asking for a job, healing or wisdom... whatever... and I think that's OK, too.... I think someone hears them. Results may vary

But moreover, I believe in living in a manner that consistently maintains communication every second of the day.... Like never being alone... separate but together.... lol...kinda like that crazy Irish bastard in Braveheart.

But you do what works for you..... Cuz I admit it... I'm fkn crazy to live like this.....

D

You are right Tim. There is a big difference in what you state.

I do respect you for what you believe and say. I for one would never say you are wrong or there might be another belief because what you say is pretty close to what I believe. We just don't agree on wording.

You are a good person and that is all anyone can ask, those that believe in "God" and those that might believe in something different. It all comes down to weather you are a good person or not. You are a good person, so there you go....

-jeff