The Skeptics Thread

[Azmal]

Ah, now who's being apologetic.

Well, just trying to clear miscommunication since I seemed to be misunderstood hehe

I was kind of hoping to go back and forth with someone who was strong in their faith but willing to listen and make points of their own so I must admit I'm rather very surprised there hasn't been more 'pushing back' from those with faith, especially on this forum.

Those of faith are complacent to the normal 'God Bless this and that' used to punctuate every last sentence that seem nearly like a conditioned response. I see these things all the time, or rather they are far more apparent to me; they stick out like a bunch of sore thumbs, if you will. If you (understood you) don't realize it, start taking note of just how often references to god there is on this forum alone. It's the gesture that matters, I can get that, and no problem on that point in my mind, but just imagine that each "god bless" reference instead says "And may the elven star light of Rivendell guide your way" or if that reference is unfamiliar to you, imagine "May Rudolph's light guide your sleigh" And you'll probably understand how absurd it sounds in my mind. It's silly right? Do these people really believe elves and flying deer exist? Sure, it comforts them and they'll hate me to tell them their dear belief is nearly 100% probably untrue but really, at some point you tell kids there's no Santa right?

That's just part of my though process on the issue. I'm able to look at things from another's perspective and understand where they're coming from even if I disagree with them completely. I would like to see religion drastically reduce but it's hard to say what will happen. As has been said already, there is quite the natural desire to believe in at least 'something' mystical. It takes time to rid ones self of needing a personal mystic quota filled. In the 60's, according to Dawkins anyway, a leading public atheist, it seemed to him as though the world was finally 'coming to it's senses' and religion was on the decline but I guess that didn't last, but at least developed countries other than the US have had a decrease in religion. I think the evangelical movement has been a really big push. Some very scary % of evangelical children are home schooled and heavily indoctrinated (Please watch the 'Jesus Camp' documentary as this highlights some of this topic; it's just unreal)

Perhaps if a good secular movement is put forth that can organize atheist (compared to herding cats) and we do something about our horrifying education standards, there might be hope. There's no simple answer of course. And I think there will be 'something' clinging to mystique for hundreds of years into our future. I mean, it doesn't seem like in our day and age it'd be possible that new religions could emerge but lo and behold, Scientology (quite new) and Mormanism/LDS (mid 19th century I think)... but then again, these did appear in America so perhaps if we can get our act together the world will experience a new wave of 'enlightenment' But technology has made us all fat and happy and not many people actually care anymore. Ever seen the movie "Idiocracy"? Of course this line of thought can lead to a whole different topic all together that I could go on forever about.

 

[Ram From Hell]

ummmm, huh??? Maybe it's just early here, but color me confused hehehe.

I think he means to say that someone of Hispanic origin works there.

 

[OCBob]

I think he means to say that someone of Hispanic origin works there.

Ahhh, ok. Guess I'm just a little slow on the uptake this morning hehe. But I still don't get the quote of my post??? Maybe I need a nap already.

 

[Ram From Hell]

Well, just trying to clear miscommunication since I seemed to be misunderstood hehe

I was kind of hoping to go back and forth with someone who was strong in their faith but willing to listen and make points of their own so I must admit I'm rather very surprised there hasn't been more 'pushing back' from those with faith, especially on this forum.

Those of faith are complacent to the normal 'God Bless this and that' used to punctuate every last sentence that seem nearly like a conditioned response. I see these things all the time, or rather they are far more apparent to me; they stick out like a bunch of sore thumbs, if you will. If you (understood you) don't realize it, start taking note of just how often references to god there is on this forum alone. It's the gesture that matters, I can get that, and no problem on that point in my mind, but just imagine that each "god bless" reference instead says "And may the elven star light of Rivendell guide your way" or if that reference is unfamiliar to you, imagine "May Rudolph's light guide your sleigh" And you'll probably understand how absurd it sounds in my mind. It's silly right? Do these people really believe elves and flying deer exist? Sure, it comforts them and they'll hate me to tell them their dear belief is nearly 100% probably untrue but really, at some point you tell kids there's no Santa right?

That's just part of my though process on the issue. I'm able to look at things from another's perspective and understand where they're coming from even if I disagree with them completely. I would like to see religion drastically reduce but it's hard to say what will happen. As has been said already, there is quite the natural desire to believe in at least 'something' mystical. It takes time to rid ones self of needing a personal mystic quota filled. In the 60's, according to Dawkins anyway, a leading public atheist, it seemed to him as though the world was finally 'coming to it's senses' and religion was on the decline but I guess that didn't last, but at least developed countries other than the US have had a decrease in religion. I think the evangelical movement has been a really big push. Some very scary % of evangelical children are home schooled and heavily indoctrinated (Please watch the 'Jesus Camp' documentary as this highlights some of this topic; it's just unreal)

Perhaps if a good secular movement is put forth that can organize atheist (compared to herding cats) and we do something about our horrifying education standards, there might be hope. There's no simple answer of course. And I think there will be 'something' clinging to mystique for hundreds of years into our future. I mean, it doesn't seem like in our day and age it'd be possible that new religions could emerge but lo and behold, Scientology (quite new) and Mormanism/LDS (mid 19th century I think)... but then again, these did appear in America so perhaps if we can get our act together the world will experience a new wave of 'enlightenment' But technology has made us all fat and happy and not many people actually care anymore. Ever seen the movie "Idiocracy"? Of course this line of thought can lead to a whole different topic all together that I could go on forever about.

I do understand, Azmal. I was just poking (back) fun.

I too am hoping for more responses reasoning why, but that may be asking for too much. As I stated in my last post, reason doesn't necessarily have anything to do with faith. If reasoning were inherent to faith, we'd all have more faith in ourselves than in the mythical that those of faith surround themselves with.

There are very specific reasons why man may never abandon religion entirely. It goes back to my first post, which sites the reasons for it's existence in society. These reasons still exist, people still have a desire to believe in that which cannot by all accounts exist, people have weaknesses of mind and/or of character which drive them to cling to it, people still have a need for a battle cry believing themselves to be repressed or maligned... Bottom line is that religion may always exist in some form or another for man because man needs it. It will continue to evolve to meet the needs and awareness of its followers, but it will continue nonetheless.

Still, I am simultaneously surprised yet not surprised, and sometimes amused, at what people of this modern age will grab on to. Scientology and Mormonism are great examples. Really now, aliens? Reading scripture out of a magic hat? (Yes, those are part of those religions, respectively.) P.T. Barnum wasn't the one who said that a sucker was born every minute, but it sure seems to hold true to this day. For the life of me, I can't help but look for answers as to why.

 

[BurntRubber]

Nelson (Hot Ram) has basically summarized what I would have said. I say thanks to him so I didn't have to write it out.

 

[HOT RAM]

I am finding it increasingly difficult to follow the reasoning/questioning being brought out . I am probably the least qualified to argue for the side of faith,but I have done my best.

Without bashing or being condescending to anyone,the only way faith /spiritual matters will ever make any "sense" to anyone is to experience it.Far too many skeptics point to the bad examples of so-called Christians and use them as examples when there are MANY good Christians that would present a better view if you only look for them.

Prayer is never a bad idea.I believe that it works and have seen it work in specific instances far too many times for it to be just "mathmatically probable".I also speak from personal experience on the existence of God.I do not just blindly believe something that I read.Again,this is something that is hard for a non-believer to understand or accept,but I know God is real because he talks to me. (go ahead and laugh,call me mentally deranged,whatever). It is not an audible voice,but I hear His voice in my spirit.he has saved me from many a trouble.I am sure skeptics will argue that this is simply a mental condition.You may also say that I am attributing to "god" that which is known as intuition.


For those who say they can't imagine having a "religion" or Faith" or a "God" to lean on and use for a crutch,I say that I can't imagine not having a real ,personal God to talk to,to lean on,or to talk to me.If I could not feel His presence in my life,I would have no reason for living.

hell to me is simply a place of separation from God.The Bible even says it was not created for man,but for the devil and his angels.God did not create it for us but to keep evil from us.When Adam ate of the fruit ,he acted in wilfull dis-obedience to God and in effect turned over the dominion of this earth,given to him by God,to satan.that is why we have evil and sickness and death in the earth.

I would hope to sway anyone over to the side of faith,but yet I doubt that I can do it.You have every right to live your life as you see fit and God will protect your right to live apart from Him.I have gone too far and too long on this road to ever be swayed back (despite the occasional fall into "sin"),but everyone has to decide for their ownself .

 

[HOT RAM]

I believe that all organized religion is evil, stuffy, disingenuous and utter unmitigated Bullshit. I believe in God and I don't need a bunch of Bullshit to tell me how to be a good person. I certainly don't have any use for them in politics either. I think it muddles the thinking process and clouds peoples minds. I think the Bible is a good book full of just enough historical factoids to lend credibility as far as reference. I don't believe that Jesus was anything more special then Charles Manson in getting people to follow him.

After all God's own chosen people the Jews don't recognize him as their savior either. I don't believe that God would be so stupid as to trust any man to speak for him. Let alone hire them as Ghost writers to his word. I don't find the Bible credible that way at all....and if it is the one true word then why are there versions ? I mean the word is the word and no other version is necessary is there ? I really want to know from people why if the Bible is the word of God do they find it acceptable that 7 of the original books have been excluded...Where is the outrage ? Why would any of God's word be deemed heretical and silenced ?

Maybe those books said something...I encourage all true believers to research those...Sorry Tim I have asked these questions before and since this is a Philosophical discussion I would now enjoy reading a thought out response from those who have a philosophical difference to what I posted. I just don't think I can buy lock stock and barrel anything that picks and chooses which word of God they chose to follow. Ambiguity is the Bible and organized religon...Without the ambiguity many rich pastors would be out of work because there would be no need to decipher meaning of the one true word...Why interpret anything ?

All I know is,when I did what Jesus said to do............it worked !

God has always chosen to work through men.Why ? I can't answer that to anyones satisfaction ,I am sure.God originally put man in a garden and talked with him in the cool of the day.He ask man to build a church and worship Him.He just created us for fellowship with Him.

There are several good books out about the different versions.I hold the opinion that ALL are corrupted by man EXCEPT the King James Version.Why ?

It is the ONLY one translated from the Textus Receptus, "received text".All the others are translated from the Westcott-Hort manuscripts,that were found in a TRASH CAN ! But,being older,some one got the brilliant idea they were better.Hogwash ! They were in a trash can for a reason!


If it were myth,fairly tale and legend,how do you explain that it is still changing lives and getting the sick healed ?


I do agree about "religion".It isn't good for much.Realationship with God is a whole other story !!

 

[Prof]

Getting the sick healed? I thought that was science or a strong immune system...

Your last point is operative and for me, very important.

 

[Django]

Mikey, hope yer doing well.... Long time no see.....

I'm not sure if I am reading your words at the proper temperature or not. So I will do my best to "read" you in the approprite manner and without malice despite what you've said.

I realize fully that you've been abused by religious people. .. and I do feel you, bro.

I too have had a belly full of religion and it's practitioners. Many of them are users of their fellow man and nothing more than rapists who siphon the meager resources of the elderly, the unsuspecting and poor gullible people who find themsleves under circumstances of utter desparation.

Religious elders have a habit of killing off the greatest people on earth... mostly because they cannot tolerate the truth and light that emantes from their mouths and their very presence. The most expeditious solution is to get the religious commoners to execute these lovers of truth.

Whether you believe that the Bible is 100% bullshit or not. Whether you consign it to the flames is your perogative... although there is a rather awful historical precident for such things. Along the same lines, I don't really mind if you refuse to acknowledge that their have been individuals who's genuine and heartfelt dedication to God and goodness have compelled the masses to glorify them. Obviously, you must have some reason to feel the way you do.

But for you to (without conscience) connect Jesus Christ and Charles Manson is nothing more than a childish outburst designed specifically to anger those who love Him. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that even in the blackest recesses of your soul that not even you could believe such a crock of pure, refined bullshit.

Words mean things. And yours were certainly acceptable until you blurted out the garbage I've just mentioned. Why destroy your own credibilty- intentionally and profoundly wounding others by saying stupid things that everyone knows are bullshit anyway....? Grow the fk up will ya'..... and for once in your brief time on Earth show some kindness or maybe just a shred of deference to those around you who may be hurt by your words.

What's your aversion to showing some kindness or maybe just a shred of deference to those around you? A number of good brothers and sisters on this forum (including myself) most assuredly deserve an apology from you.... Not to mention Jesus himself....

Otherwise, my admonition to you is one of selfsame sexual penetration.

Peace......

tadp

 

[TheSickness]

Getting the sick healed? I thought that was science or a strong immune system...

Your last point is operative and for me, very important.

I actually expected a post from my friend Nelson Roy. He is very intelligent and while I don't think he adequately answered he at least has some balls to try. I noticed that not one of the others posted and I expected exactly what I got.....It's always silence. Nelson to his credit is a passionate and thoughtful person....I Love that Hillbilly Biker guy. I got no issue with his response because I know the man, broke bread with him and rode Bitch in his truck LOL...What I wanted was for just one of the other guys to speak up in a intelligent fashion and speak to what I wrote. Challenge me and prove that I am full of Shit....over 4 years and not 1 person has answered those question I have framed differently many times over...It would force them to research the validity of what I posted and cause them to think. That is all I ever want from them.

Nelson by any standard is a religious academic. He has posted more valuable information in this regard then any 10 other people put together over the years. This is a man that not only listens...but actually takes the time to hear what your saying. He gets it I know he does....But even he has never breached the leaving of 7 books out of the Bible....I would not touch it with a 10' pole either if I was strong in faith based religion.

 

[TheSickness]

And one more thing:

Your comments belong on the Skeptics thread and not here. Please never bring such evil and negativity onto this thread again.

This is a place of peace and uplifting. NOT a verbal latrine in which to deposit your psychological effluent.

D

Keep reading I did post exactly that on the other thread....I will not apologize for my comparison of Jesus and Manson....You once again took it personal and inserted your own idea of what you think I meant...That is your problem..Instead of asking me why...You posted a rather long winded response to how you think I should be to other people...Your lashing out at me was the childish action. Jesus or Joe Schwartz ??? makes no difference to me..Jesus is not God....Even Jesus said that if I remember correctly. So step back from the keyboard and open your mind a little or do as you have before and have it deleted....Your attempt at a verbal lashing has never worked on me......ever

BTW I can draw a number of comparisons between the 2....anyone can. The 2 names picked by me was purely philisophical....Philosophy by its very nature is a version of Bullshit.....Lighten up Bro

I did apologize on the other thread for not posting it there....The comment I made I stand behind...

 

[TheSickness]

Mikey, take this shit to Azmals "skeptics thread" PLEASE!

D

I did not address this post to you Tim....I am off your thread.....and you need real therapy

 

[Django]

I did not address this post to you Tim....I am off your thread.....and you need real therapy

Ya, blame me............

Peace ...

D

 

[Wifey]

Anyone with extra time on their hands could study english for me :dontknow:

 

[supercar1of1]

Study: Prayer didn't help sick


CHICAGO — Praying for a sick heart patient may feel right to people of faith, but it doesn't appear to improve the patient's health, according to a new study that is the largest ever done on the healing powers of prayer.

Indeed, researchers at the Harvard Medical School and five other U.S. medical centers found, to their bewilderment, that coronary-bypass patients who knew strangers were praying for them fared significantly worse than people who got no prayers. The team speculated that telling patients about the prayers may have caused "performance anxiety," or perhaps a fear that doctors expected the worst.

"Obviously, my colleagues were surprised by the unexpected and counterintuitive outcome," said the Rev. Dean Marek, director of chaplain services at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., and a study co-investigator.

It was a strange end for the mammoth prayer study, which cost $2.4 million and enrolled 1,802 patients who had bypass surgery. Most of the funding came from the British-based John Templeton Foundation, which supports research at the intersection of science and religion.

Previous studies had examined the power of prayer for medical patients, with mixed results. Most did not have the statistical power to reliably detect the effects of prayer, if it had an effect.:dontknow:



.

 

[Django]

Study: Prayer didn't help sick


CHICAGO — Praying for a sick heart patient may feel right to people of faith, but it doesn't appear to improve the patient's health, according to a new study that is the largest ever done on the healing powers of prayer.

Indeed, researchers at the Harvard Medical School and five other U.S. medical centers found, to their bewilderment, that coronary-bypass patients who knew strangers were praying for them fared significantly worse than people who got no prayers. The team speculated that telling patients about the prayers may have caused "performance anxiety," or perhaps a fear that doctors expected the worst.

"Obviously, my colleagues were surprised by the unexpected and counterintuitive outcome," said the Rev. Dean Marek, director of chaplain services at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., and a study co-investigator.

It was a strange end for the mammoth prayer study, which cost $2.4 million and enrolled 1,802 patients who had bypass surgery. Most of the funding came from the British-based John Templeton Foundation, which supports research at the intersection of science and religion.

Previous studies had examined the power of prayer for medical patients, with mixed results. Most did not have the statistical power to reliably detect the effects of prayer, if it had an effect.:dontknow:



.

Having seen and participated in as many prayer meetings, all night vigils, healing services, tent revivals, prophetic seminars and various and sundry other endeavors of their kind, I can safely say that I have NEVER witnessed what I can honestly say is one, single, solitary creative miracle healing.

I've witnessed just about everything else in my nearly 60 years as a Christian.

Chirstianity runs the entire gamut of the religious experience- from rigid and liturgical Latin masses to tongue talkin' snake handlers who breakdance and juggle venom spitting diamondback rattlers all at one time.... As my daddy (RIP) used to say, "Son they were floppin' around on that alter like a trout out'a water..."

Having said all that, I still have been blessed and greatly comforted by having my friends standing around my hosptial bed and holding me up to the Lord in prayer.

I've been very close to death on occasion... At those times I've never felt more alive.

Say what you will.........

D

 

[Begood]

Anyone with extra time on their hands could study english for me :dontknow:

I don't have that much time on my hands. Hell I barely got through it way back when I was in high school.

Bill.

 

[Prof]

Anyone with extra time on their hands could study english for me :dontknow:

We could strike a deal!

 

[HOT RAM]

....over 4 years and not 1 person has answered those question I have framed differently many times over...It would force them to research the validity of what I posted and cause them to think. That is all I ever want from them.

But even he has never breached the leaving of 7 books out of the Bible....I would not touch it with a 10' pole either if I was strong in faith based religion.

I admit I must have missed the question

But,if it is "Why are there 7 books left out of the Bible ?",my answer is : I honestly don't know.

I have heard of "The Apocrypha" ( spelling ?) .It was left out of the King James Version (which is the only one I use ) because the scholars compiling "THE BIBLE" after much study,prayer and comparison to other long accepted scriptures deemed them unacceptable as Holy Scripture.

There were also the works of Josephus that, while historically accurate,were also deemed unworthy of being called "Holy Scripture".

Maybe this helps and maybe it muddies the waters even further. Bottom line is ...........I just don't know for sure.

 

[HOT RAM]

Study: Prayer didn't help sick


CHICAGO — Praying for a sick heart patient may feel right to people of faith, but it doesn't appear to improve the patient's health, according to a new study that is the largest ever done on the healing powers of prayer.

Indeed, researchers at the Harvard Medical School and five other U.S. medical centers found, to their bewilderment, that coronary-bypass patients who knew strangers were praying for them fared significantly worse than people who got no prayers. The team speculated that telling patients about the prayers may have caused "performance anxiety," or perhaps a fear that doctors expected the worst.

"Obviously, my colleagues were surprised by the unexpected and counterintuitive outcome," said the Rev. Dean Marek, director of chaplain services at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., and a study co-investigator.

It was a strange end for the mammoth prayer study, which cost $2.4 million and enrolled 1,802 patients who had bypass surgery. Most of the funding came from the British-based John Templeton Foundation, which supports research at the intersection of science and religion.

Previous studies had examined the power of prayer for medical patients, with mixed results. Most did not have the statistical power to reliably detect the effects of prayer, if it had an effect.:dontknow:



.

Not all prayer will help.The Bible says that "the prayer of FAITH" shall save the sick.Prayer is entered into far too lightly.When you pray and deep down in your heart expect nothing,why then do we blame God for not answering it ?

Praying in faith is expecting what you are praying for to actually happen.

Now before someone accuses me of being "Jesus the 2nd",I have had prayer and faith failures also.Why ? Well,I will just have to ask God when I get to Heaven.


Philosophical thought for the day :
For those that believe,no explanation is needed.
For those that do not believe,no explanation is possible.