The Skeptics Thread

[Riff62]

Pretty interesting thread here..I have nothing to add, just commenting..carry on..

 

[BurntRubber]

Pretty interesting thread here..I have nothing to add, just commenting..carry on..

prolly the best post in the thread

 

[Prof]

So eyeball calculation says that about 30% of humanity is Christian...and that means that something around 70% are non-Christian...so if as stated nicely above that God plans everyone's day and he has pre-determined what is going to happen...why aren't more Christians...or more to the point why are there so many religions...wouldn't it solve a lot of human misery if God just planned to have everyone believe the same thing?

Not shooting at anyone or anything just asking...

 

[BurntRubber]

So eyeball calculation says that about 30% of humanity is Christian...and that means that something around 70% are non-Christian...so if as stated nicely above that God plans everyone's day and he has pre-determined what is going to happen...why aren't more Christians...or more to the point why are there so many religions...wouldn't it solve a lot of human misery if God just planned to have everyone believe the same thing?

Not shooting at anyone or anything just asking...

free will...before Jesus was crucified he said in a nut shell "I am going to the Father, you can't come with me, when I go he will send to you the Holy Spirit, if you accept the Holy Spirirt you accept me (meaning Jesus)."
another part in John (the gospel) Jesus says " I am the way, the truth, and the light. who ever believes in me will not perish but have eternal life"

God wants you to choose him, thats kind of scrathing the surface.
by all means anyone that has any questions feel free to call me any time 623-271-0617

 

[Prof]

How are the other 70% to know what Jesus said?

Moses, and Muhammad said basically the same thing...but Christians don't read those religious books...

How do you live with the concept that "God plans everyone's day" but you also attribute the non-Christian world to free will??? If you become a Christian does that mean that your days are then planned by God...but no one else has that done for them? Is that then not the loss of free will?

 

[BurntRubber]

How are the other 70% to know what Jesus said?

Moses, and Muhammad said basically the same thing...but Christians don't read those religious books...

How do you live with the concept that "God plans everyone's day" but you also attribute the non-Christian world to free will??? If you become a Christian does that mean that your days are then planned by God...but no one else has that done for them? Is that then not the loss of free will?

God's love is extended to all, i did not say that your days are "planned" by God if you are a christian or not...everyone's are! As far as how do others know, its our jobs a Christians to spread the word about Jesus...kind of like what I am doing now. God sayd "I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you" thats in jerehmiah. so there is no loss of free will, everything is under God's authority, that hubble telescope that sees how ever billions of miles...well why couldnt God have just made that solar system and put it there to show of his mighty power, like it says in Isaiah.
Prof, you try to over analyze to much, to much science...not enough Faith

 

[Ram From Hell]

...well why couldnt God have just made that solar system and put it there to show of his mighty power, like it says in Isaiah.
Prof, you try to over analyze to much, to much science...not enough Faith

In my very humble opinion, if a deity really wanted to show me his mighty power, how about starting with something really easy like, say, ending famine, disease, crime, war and hatred? Perhaps he shouldn't have made us in his image, because the reflection is pretty darned ugly at times from my perspective. Apparently God has freedom of choice as well, which happens to include the abject, needless suffering of his beloved sons and daughters. For every uplifting story like Carlos', there seem to be a hundred that make me cringe. Perhaps the footsteps on the beach are alone because the rest have fallen by the wayside.

Over analyzing? Nah, just paying attention.

I am grateful for the positive aspects of life with religion, but I am hard-pressed to accept that every heinous act perpetrated on the human race is part of a plan managed by an omniscient, omnipotent being.

Want to pray for something? Don't pray for me. Pray that I'm wrong. Because if this is a world of a loving god, then heaven must be misery.

Come back tomorrow. Perhaps I'll be a tad less cynical.

 

[supercar1of1]

In my very humble opinion, if a deity really wanted to show me his mighty power, how about starting with something really easy like, say, ending famine, disease, crime, war and hatred? Perhaps he shouldn't have made us in his image, because the reflection is pretty darned ugly at times from my perspective. Apparently God has freedom of choice as well, which happens to include the abject, needless suffering of his beloved sons and daughters. For every uplifting story like Carlos', there seem to be a hundred that make me cringe. Perhaps the footsteps on the beach are alone because the rest have fallen by the wayside.

Over analyzing? Nah, just paying attention.

I am grateful for the positive aspects of life with religion, but I am hard-pressed to accept that every heinous act perpetrated on the human race is part of a plan managed by an omniscient, omnipotent being.

Want to pray for something? Don't pray for me. Pray that I'm wrong. Because if this is a world of a loving god, then heaven must be misery.

Come back tomorrow. Perhaps I'll be a tad less cynical.

Yep!





.

 

[BurntRubber]

In my very humble opinion, if a deity really wanted to show me his mighty power, how about starting with something really easy like, say, ending famine, disease, crime, war and hatred? Perhaps he shouldn't have made us in his image, because the reflection is pretty darned ugly at times from my perspective. Apparently God has freedom of choice as well, which happens to include the abject, needless suffering of his beloved sons and daughters. For every uplifting story like Carlos', there seem to be a hundred that make me cringe. Perhaps the footsteps on the beach are alone because the rest have fallen by the wayside.

Over analyzing? Nah, just paying attention.

I am grateful for the positive aspects of life with religion, but I am hard-pressed to accept that every heinous act perpetrated on the human race is part of a plan managed by an omniscient, omnipotent being.

Want to pray for something? Don't pray for me. Pray that I'm wrong. Because if this is a world of a loving god, then heaven must be misery.

Come back tomorrow. Perhaps I'll be a tad less cynical.

He gave us this world and allows us to do with it as we please. how can I speak for another mans actions. its just faith guys, its just believing. like I said, take a weekend trip down here with your family. dont really picture my story as up lifting or anything, i am just me...just a guy trying to do the right thing...dont even know if I am doing that. this si nothing new to me, as far as these posts go, remember my dad is more cynical. like I said there is only so much that you can get out in a post, you guys got my number, call me...dont worry brother I will pray for you.
I dont really want to come accross like my way or the highway, more so that I care about you guys and want the best for all.
as for me and my house we will worship the Lord!

 

[BurntRubber]

Yep!





.

maybe...but then again someone told me in heaven all cars come from the factory with TT's

and in hell they are all prius's... enjoy

 

[Django]

In my very humble opinion, if a deity really wanted to show me his mighty power, how about starting with something really easy like, say, ending famine, disease, crime, war and hatred? Perhaps he shouldn't have made us in his image, because the reflection is pretty darned ugly at times from my perspective. Apparently God has freedom of choice as well, which happens to include the abject, needless suffering of his beloved sons and daughters. For every uplifting story like Carlos', there seem to be a hundred that make me cringe. Perhaps the footsteps on the beach are alone because the rest have fallen by the wayside.

Over analyzing? Nah, just paying attention.

I am grateful for the positive aspects of life with religion, but I am hard-pressed to accept that every heinous act perpetrated on the human race is part of a plan managed by an omniscient, omnipotent being.

Want to pray for something? Don't pray for me. Pray that I'm wrong. Because if this is a world of a loving god, then heaven must be misery.

Come back tomorrow. Perhaps I'll be a tad less cynical.

Perhaps it would be prudent to refine your vision:

Rather than a beneficent God that makes life a cakewalk, how about an atmosphere on Earth that requires much from us in the hope that in spite of the difficulty mankind will arise a victor who has accomplished great things amidst arduous circumstances.

To whom much is given, much will be required.....

No human being that I know of has come to a place of enlightenment or even accomplishment by being pampered and spoiled.

Evil exists for a reason... Maybe so we don't spend all our lives here and still wind up a buncha candy asses.....

D

 

[BurntRubber]

Perhaps it would be prudent to refine your vision:


To whom much is given, much will be required.....


D

werd up...found that in a good book once :rock:

 

[Prof]

God's love is extended to all, i did not say that your days are "planned" by God if you are a christian or not...everyone's are! As far as how do others know, its our jobs a Christians to spread the word about Jesus...kind of like what I am doing now. God sayd "I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you" thats in jerehmiah. so there is no loss of free will, everything is under God's authority, that hubble telescope that sees how ever billions of miles...well why couldnt God have just made that solar system and put it there to show of his mighty power, like it says in Isaiah.
Prof, you try to over analyze to much, to much science...not enough Faith

I have huge amounts of faith, but it does not deter me from trying to find rational alignment between thought and reality. There is no such thing as too much analysis, it is the pursuit of truth that inspires mankind.

So if a Christian accepts Christ, they can possibly have eternal life and not perish. Does that say that non-Christians will not? Or is it just an affirmative statement about Christians. I presume that if one does not accept Christ, that it is their free will and that is acceptable and the issue of eternal life is still an open issue...or has that door shut?

 

[Django]

I have huge amounts of faith, but it does not deter me from trying to find rational alignment between thought and reality. There is no such thing as too much analysis, it is the pursuit of truth that inspires mankind.

So if a Christian accepts Christ, they can possibly have eternal life and not perish. Does that say that non-Christians will not? Or is it just an affirmative statement about Christians. I presume that if one does not accept Christ, that it is their free will and that is acceptable and the issue of eternal life is still an open issue...or has that door shut?

Roy, my opoinon of that may differ greatly from that of other Christians.

But I believe (that) there's more Biblical precedent for the fact that when Jesus died on the cross, that He did it for ALL and not just for those who believe....

As I said, I may be in the minority and in deep shit from some... But, I stand confidently by my statement.

Don't you ever frikkin sleep...?

D

 

[Prof]

Your view fits well with my concept of a loving God that would never turn his back. As opposed to a vengeful God that created hell and evil and mortal sin.

I slept for four hours...more than that is wasteful...I have to get my reading time in...almost finished with a novel...got a new book I want to start this weekend...by Vincent Bugliosi, "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder".

Probably not much of a book, but I will love carrying it around to my favorite public reading locations!

 

[Pretyflywiteguy]

not sure if anyone posted this or not yet..

Christianity:
The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.


makes perfect sense.

also a movie coming out Oct. 3rd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMW1u3a2Qd8

 

[Azmal]

"Do I know for sure there is no God, no I dont...but you dont know for sure there isnt. "
What's the point of even saying that? You can't prove to me the tooth fairy doesn't exist either but we don't put dentures under our pillows do we? We need to base our view of our universe on more than what simply -could- be true. There needs to be evidence that doesn't require us to convince ourselves something is true before we commit to believe in something and construct our lives around it.

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world." - Richard Dawkins

"prove to me there is no God, prove to me Jesus never existed. prove to me there is no Heaven, or the the Bible isnt relevant in todays times."
Again, there is no proof. Tell you what, prove to me there is no Santa and I'll convert on the spot. If you understand my point you'll understand it doesn't do anything to say things like that. It's like you've walled yourself in with a barrier immune to reason selective to topics of God.

I've noticed that people can be as smart as the next or even quite more so but they will have a completely different logic function concerning God. I've heard said "An intelligent person will go to extreme lengths to justify an irrational belief"

What matters to me is if there is enough evidence to assume a belief is true. The universe as we knew it thousands of years ago needed a god to explain things. The way we understand our universe now doesn't require a god at all. While one can't prove anything, I feel there is more than enough of a case against believing a personal god, especially the god represented by any number of Christian faiths. To me it's all man made and unnecessary except those who need it as a crutch or need to be kept in line by it. I'd like to imagine a world without the need of crutches or penalty system. Can't happen in full but it doesn't mean we can't progress towards it.

I think the vast majority of believers simply want to believe for one reason or another. I argue from the point that 'want' doesn't matter a bit when talking about whether something is true or likely to be true or not.

Another thought:
What would it mean if neuroscience discovered a way to instantly make a religious person atheist? If they found a control center in the brain that seemed to produce that need to believe in something above themselves.
Or, what if you could shut down one side of your brain and asked the question "do you believe in God?" and one half said yes, and one half said no. Interestingly, some of these things have been observed.

Let me also point out that there is not one single thing in the bible that could not have been made up by man. There was nothing in there that was ahead of it's time where the wheelbarrow was the latest breaking technology.

Christopher Hitchens - "There still remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origin of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error, it combines the maximum of servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking."

 

[Prof]

The quote from Hitchens that concluded your comment serves up a softball in my opinion ...because of its use of universal assumptions.

If a religious faith states that religion and science must go hand in hand, rather than try to foist an unsupportable 'non-provable' approach to creation, evolution, and spirituality it resides outside of the exclusions he has defined.

I see little harm in social structure being self indulgent, as a matter of fact I think that might be the core reason for the construction of cohorts of humans. You postulate about science being able to turn off a religious switch...well I can present the same analogy from the other side...what if some how today it became impossible to kill people in Iraq...would science then accept that possibly there is a supreme power that cares about humanity? (I only choose that analogy since Hutchins is in favor of the invasion of Iraq).

So that kind of postulating seems equally non productive...

I am probably the most ardent opponent to people using biblical quotations as evidence on one thing or another. It is just not rational...it is not proof of anything other than some words have been written by a nameless someone (s) who ostensibly were inspired by the words of a supreme entity. That to me is laughable. Papers that come to my desk using that kind of evidence are usually sent back with "...use quantifiable and attributable evidence from universally accepted sources..."

Is it not enough to say that the belief in God is a need of some humans and that alone is sufficient to prove the existence of the concept of God? I believe that is the essence of the issue. I also think that disdain for those that wish to believe in God (as a short coming or weakness) is less than humanistic. I bet that Hitchins would agree.

 

[BurntRubber]

"Do I know for sure there is no God, no I dont...but you dont know for sure there isnt. "
What's the point of even saying that? You can't prove to me the tooth fairy doesn't exist either but we don't put dentures under our pillows do we? We need to base our view of our universe on more than what simply -could- be true. There needs to be evidence that doesn't require us to convince ourselves something is true before we commit to believe in something and construct our lives around it.

"I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world." - Richard Dawkins

"prove to me there is no God, prove to me Jesus never existed. prove to me there is no Heaven, or the the Bible isnt relevant in todays times."
Again, there is no proof. Tell you what, prove to me there is no Santa and I'll convert on the spot. If you understand my point you'll understand it doesn't do anything to say things like that. It's like you've walled yourself in with a barrier immune to reason selective to topics of God.

I've noticed that people can be as smart as the next or even quite more so but they will have a completely different logic function concerning God. I've heard said "An intelligent person will go to extreme lengths to justify an irrational belief"

What matters to me is if there is enough evidence to assume a belief is true. The universe as we knew it thousands of years ago needed a god to explain things. The way we understand our universe now doesn't require a god at all. While one can't prove anything, I feel there is more than enough of a case against believing a personal god, especially the god represented by any number of Christian faiths. To me it's all man made and unnecessary except those who need it as a crutch or need to be kept in line by it. I'd like to imagine a world without the need of crutches or penalty system. Can't happen in full but it doesn't mean we can't progress towards it.

I think the vast majority of believers simply want to believe for one reason or another. I argue from the point that 'want' doesn't matter a bit when talking about whether something is true or likely to be true or not.

Another thought:
What would it mean if neuroscience discovered a way to instantly make a religious person atheist? If they found a control center in the brain that seemed to produce that need to believe in something above themselves.
Or, what if you could shut down one side of your brain and asked the question "do you believe in God?" and one half said yes, and one half said no. Interestingly, some of these things have been observed.

Let me also point out that there is not one single thing in the bible that could not have been made up by man. There was nothing in there that was ahead of it's time where the wheelbarrow was the latest breaking technology.

Christopher Hitchens - "There still remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origin of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error, it combines the maximum of servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking."

hahaha, good thing I researched all this stuff...I became a Christian because a friend gave me a year to disprove the Jesus of Nazareth existed.
its actually recorded in roman records that a Jesus of Nazareth was crucified, and it matches the time frame in which the gospels say

guys some one disprove the Bible...guess what thousands of tried and its never been done, there are people who commit there lives to both sides of this topic...if the Bible was false do you think it would have been in the news

 

[eddie102870]

man yall are up early. roy you must be like my dad. what is it with old folks and not sleeping? good reading guys i missed a few pages but im going to go back and catch up with this thread. interesting since i come from being raised in a pentecostal background.