The Skeptics Thread

ViperJeff said:
No problem Kris....

I just couln't resist. You know how us crazy Mormons are :D

You still Rock! :rock:

VJ

Go drink another beer in the closet "Jack"!;) :marchmellow: :D
 
KRAZYSRT10 said:
Just to add to this...I have been baptised Mormon once upon a time. I have no problems with people of this faith, however, I personally do not trust this church nor do I trust most churches. However, I know the stories and have read the Book of Mormon and I find it hard to believe that the Lord speaks through this man who calls himself the Prophet as voted by the 12 Apostles or whatever it is called, I forget.

I did not mean to offend anybody that is Mormon, just stoking some conversation as asked and as you can see....this why I usually avoid these conversations because I end up hobbling away due to one foot being in my mouth.:dontknow:

I see no problem in that. Faith is individual, not a group consensus

VJ
 
KRAZYSRT10 said:
Go drink another beer in the closet "Jack"!;) :marchmellow: :D

I wish I could, but it's not on my Dr ordered allowed food/drink list


:marchmellow:
 
ViperJeff said:
I wish I could, but it's not on my Dr ordered allowed food/drink list


:marchmellow:

Is this list labeled "Words of Wisdom" for gall stones?;)
 
It's because I weighed 315 lbs and I'm only 5'8"

I'm down to 293

So I will endeveor to continue
 
Ram From Hell said:
Careful, that statement cuts both ways.;)

This, on the other hand does not.

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

-Albert Einstein

I made the statement in full knowledge of that fact.....

As for your need to quote Einstein. Albert Einstein was not an atheist. He is often quoted as saying such things as "I believe in Spinoza's God" and such. Your attempt to gain credibilty by using the above quote in a vain attempt to share his credibilty in this way is intentellectually dishonest and usurious.... I'm raising the BS flag.

"The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness."

( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)

Einstein was a spiritual man who believed in God in his own way....

"The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer."

- Albert Einstein,

"I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil. My God created laws that take care of that. His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking, but by immutable laws."


:bs:

D
 
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Django said:
Your attempt to gain credibilty by using the above quote in a vain attempt to share his credibilty in this way is intentellectually dishonest and usurious.... I'm raising the BS flag.


Boo hoo. You hewt my wittle feewings.:D

Nice way to f up the words credibility (twice) and intellectually, btw. Must be some good stuff burnin' in that bowl tonight! I suppose it lends a little less of each to your come back. You'd almost think I hit a nerve with you based on your response.

Glad you can raise a flag. I'll raise a beer, and we'll see who gets more salutes. :cheers:
 
Ram From Hell said:
Boo hoo. You hewt my wittle feewings.:D

Nice way to f up the words credibility (twice) and intellectually, btw. Must be some good stuff burnin' in that bowl tonight! I suppose it lends a little less of each to your come back. You'd almost think I hit a nerve with you based on your response.

Glad you can raise a flag. I'll raise a beer, and we'll see who gets more salutes. :cheers:

Yup... Typing in a hurry cuz yer wife is waiting dinner is a bitch. Scuse the typos. But they're just a minor annoyance.

However it seems that it is you more than I who is affected by this issue.

First, I don't "do a bowl" or smoke shit... Haven't in about 25 years.... Wrong agian, Eric....

It always hits a nerve when someone uses lies to prove a point. Thus my reaction to your comments.

I'm not mad....... I just have a keen sense of truth and a dedication to it....

Either you didn't do your homework and thus were ill informed about Einstein or you simply lied to make your point.....

I have nothing against you, Eric...... We agree on a lot of subjects. yer an intelligent guy and I respect that more than you may know.... I know that yer a very competative individual. However, it is regrettable that winning and dominance is more valuable to you than telling the truth.

I'm a bit like Roy with respect to rhetoric and arguments. They should actually be true..... Yours were not.....

So, by all means.....have that beer and enjoy yourself with it.....

You lost this one.....

Peace.

D
 
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BurntRubber said:
I believe him to be the Son of God.
and maybe I should have reworded my post, but you left out the part about lee strobel being an aethiest

I have the utmost respect for your beliefs and I sincerely congratulate you on your conversion to Christianity. I applaud you for having the desire and the courage to share your faith with others. That is often not easy to do. I say this with no sarcasm at all. I also deeply respect and appreciate your testimony of witnessing your sister's recovery and your recognition of your children as the miracles and blessing they are. I also have experienced in my own life what would most likely qualify as miracles and I am a mother of two amazing sons so I can relate to where you’re coming from.

In posting that Strobel is not an atheist but an evangelical, Christian apologist and minister my only intention was to offer clarification regarding his position, not to denigrate your views or your book recommendation. Thus my statement that maybe there was a typo in the post (i.e. it was intended to say Strobel was/used to be an atheist). I have not read The Case for Christ in its entirety but I am familiar with it and understand it to be an excellent recommendation for skeptics and those questioning Christianity as well as those seeking to strengthen their faith and testimony. In terms of having “left out” Strobel having been an atheist, I was only commenting on his position now (as well as at the time he wrote the book), not trying to provide his whole history. If one really wants to get picky about it, I also “left out” other facts about him such as the degrees he holds and he used to be a journalist (I don’t know whether he presently engages in any journalism), etc. So, to be clearer or more precise, Strobel used to be an atheist. According to his own biography he became a Christian in 1981. I can’t say for sure when he actually undertook the writing of The Case for Christ but it was published in 1998, well after he became a Christian. I am not necessarily implying that this weakens his text, but it certainly seems relevant. It seems to me that there is a big difference between saying Strobel is an atheist and Strobel used to be an atheist.

As for my opinion, belief in God or a higher power ultimately comes down to faith; it is a very personal experience; it transcends that which can be known or demonstrated through empirical investigation.

On one last note (having nothing to do with god other than the claim that wine is the food of the gods), unlike Prof last night, I did not forego my wine with and after dinner. In fact, I enjoyed a lovely dry white Riesling from Jones of Washington my husband and I “discovered” during a recent trip to the Wenatchee Valley of Washington state. I’m usually more of a red wine fan, but I highly recommend this one! I am very much enjoying the dialogue being engaged in here. If it is any indication, I anticipated being a “lurker” when I signed up. I have been a member of a site for one of my favorite bands for about 10 years and I’ve already posted more here in two days than I ever have there. Let that be a testament to the tone you all emanate.
 
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Rapunzel41 said:
I have the utmost respect for your beliefs and I sincerely congratulate you on your conversion to Christianity. I applaud you for having the desire and the courage to share your faith with others. That is often not easy to do. I say this with no sarcasm at all. I also deeply respect and appreciate your testimony of witnessing your sister's recovery and your recognition of your children as the miracles and blessing they are. I also have experienced in my own life what would most likely qualify as miracles and I am a mother of two amazing sons so I can relate to where you’re coming from.

In posting that Strobel is not an atheist but an evangelical, Christian apologist and minister my only intention was to offer clarification regarding his position, not to denigrate your views or your book recommendation. Thus my statement that maybe there was a typo in the post (i.e. it was intended to say Strobel was/used to be an atheist). I have not read The Case for Christ in its entirety but I am familiar with it and understand it to be an excellent recommendation for skeptics and those questioning Christianity as well as those seeking to strengthen their faith and testimony. In terms of having “left out†Strobel having been an atheist, I was only commenting on his position now (as well as at the time he wrote the book), not trying to provide his whole history. If one really wants to get picky about it, I also “left out†other facts about him such as the degrees he holds and he used to be a journalist (I don’t know whether he presently engages in any journalism), etc. So, to be clearer or more precise, Strobel used to be an atheist. According to his own biography he became a Christian in 1981. I can’t say for sure when he actually undertook the writing of The Case for Christ but it was published in 1998, well after he became a Christian. I am not necessarily implying that this weakens his text, but it certainly seems relevant. It seems to me that there is a big difference between saying Strobel is an atheist and Strobel used to be an atheist.

As for my opinion, belief in God or a higher power ultimately comes down to faith; it is a very personal experience; it transcends that which can be known or demonstrated through empirical investigation.

On one last note (having nothing to do with god other than the claim that wine is the food of the gods), unlike Prof last night, I did not forego my wine with and after dinner. In fact, I enjoyed a lovely dry white Riesling from Jones of Washington my husband and I “discovered†during a recent trip to the Wenatchee Valley of Washington state. I’m usually more of a red wine fan, but I highly recommend this one! I am very much enjoying the dialogue being engaged in here. If it is any indication, I anticipated being a “lurker†when I signed up. I have been a member of a site for one of my favorite bands for about 10 years and I’ve already posted more here in two days than I ever have there. Let that be a testament to the tone you all emanate.

Awfully decent of you to say........

D
 
I skimmed over all the posts again and I realized I should really proof read lol. There were sections I forgot to even finish in some of my posts and who knows how many typos that distorted what I actually meant to say.

Anyway, thought I'd add something here concerning Einstein. To the best of our knowledge he was not atheist, but more importantly he was not a theist either like many defenders of religion will try to claim. Realistically he was more of a deist, he did not believe in a personal god with all the silly fairy tales, and frankly I don't think many Christians understand the difference. I think if ole Al were alive to day he'd probably be an atheist. Keep in mind our time differences.

If you're a deist you believe there's a god that created the universe and let it be. End of story, it doesn't want worship, it doesn't want your prayers, it doesn't even 'want' at all. No heaven, no hell, no talking snake, no great flood, no walking on water. If you do believe in a personal god of any sort you're classified as a theist. When someone talks about spiritual experiences (concerning god) they're talking about a theistic god, a personal god. That is a vastly different god from a deistic god. And when you claim to 'believe' one way or another you're by default making very staggering claims about the way the universe is. A universe with a personal god would obviously be a very different god from a deistic god.

I think logic and reason alone should rule out the reasonable possibility that a personal god exists but of course I can't rule out that there was an initial creator that started the universe (not that it made man, or 'designed' anything or made plans) so lets assume it holds equal grounds with any other hypothesis of what started the universe. What reason would anyone have to actually -believe- in it? It's just as viable as the next idea till we get enough evidence. I think it is a lack of human imagination that leads one to believe there is a creator. I surely don't know but I imagine it's far more exotic and strange than what we imagine when we say 'god' Or it could even be that the universe has simply always existed and there a series of big bangs, and expansions, and big crunches. We live too short of lives but luckily our human species has developed recorded history and observations and the scientific method so maybe we really will have a better model painted of our universe.

One more point, I really don't know if those of faith have a good grasp of the oppositions arguments. You'll have to imagine yourself coming up to me and asking me to believe something absurd like Elves and Goblins are real. I need some sort of evidence or at least rational reasoning before I take you seriously for a moment. The arguments presented are usually no better than what the nut house patient gives the doc to convince him what they are seeing is actually true. It's an analogy; don't take it personal.

Submitted to you un-proof read once again hehe
 
I'm going to copy over my reply to an acquaintance by proxy of mine kindly asked me to elaborate about my atheism because I feel it is relevant hopefully it will add something to the discussion. This was about a year ago.

---------------------

Ah yes most certainly I'd be happy to share. It's not easy to summarize the whole ideology of my atheism, but simply put, an atheist is an 'A'-Theist. The 'A' meaning 'without' (basically) as reference, and amoeba would replicate itself a-sexually without procreation, that is to say; non-sexually or without sex. So literally and simply put, an atheist is someone who is not a theist. A theist of course being someone who believes in a personal supernatural god or creator.

I know I'm young at 23 now, and I know full well that I can't possibly have experienced much in life, or uncovered the secrets of the universe and I have much to learn, but the pursuit of knowledge and truth is very important to me and along my path of this pursuit I have concluded through various observations that god does not exist. Though no person can say that a god does not exist, I see that the odds weigh enough against it to dismiss the concept.

What I do believe in is science. Not the science you can label as a singular entity, but the concept of science which I would say is the pursuit of knowledge, through trial and error, rational reasoning, scientific method and so on. And to me, there is much more comfort and wonder looking and dreaming into the vastness of the cosmos than any god I can imagine.

Many theists are challenged by the idea of atheism. It contradicts their core beliefs and the foundation their ethics and morals are often built upon. So it's common for atheists to be the target of bigoted narrow minded folks under the banner of their chosen deity. And thusly 'atheism' falls victim to becoming a derogatory or at least misunderstood label. Many atheists are passive on the topic of religion, and are very tolerant. And statistically speaking, less divorce, crime, and atrocities are committed by atheists.

There is a saying by Richard Dawkins, though I'm not sure he coined it, but he states that everyone knows what is is to be an atheist to Zeus, Poseidon, Apollo and the flying spaghetti monster; "I just go one god further."

Many of those subscribing to a personal god will ask where ethics, good will, and morals come from if not God? Einstein said "I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern without any superhuman authority behind it." And I subscribe to that philosophy personally. To start, ethics are taught. Different people have different ethics. Furthermore, different gods have different ethics. I believe we evolved as social creatures, and in general, it is more productive to do good deeds to advance society as a whole so perhaps it is inherit in our nature however every person is different and some will do 'bad' and counterproductive deeds. I don't have any specific belief in place for ethics. I myself try to do what is right. "Bad" actions could easily be summed up by actions which hurt others, emotionally, physically, or otherwise. But I do believe that the concept of right and wrong would fall within the purviews of philosophy exclusively and vary from person to person.
And if the point of "People with religion do good deeds and perform charity" is raised, I must say that I have immensely more admiration and respect toward a person who gives from their heart, without fear of hell, or hope of reward in heaven.

In my debates I may tend to single out Christianity in general because that's what I deal with most frequently. But in this post I am not voicing my views concerning why I can't possibly believe in any of man's current religions, but rather providing an insight to some of my views as an atheist.

Also as an atheist I have much pity that countless billions have spent their entire lives looking forward to the prospect of heaven. To a true believer, death is the best thing that can happen. To be with their Father in Heaven. However I do not believe that. To me, this life is precious, it is the only one we have, and time is incredibly limited to us as humans, nothing more than a speck of sand in an hourglass the size of our solar system. And things become so much more thought provoking and awe inspiring when you think this way. However, if you feel the next life is more important, you can be very complacent about your life here. This does not mean all believers waste their lives, but it makes me sad that people have this false hope of an afterlife and I feel there is much to be gained in this life by rejecting that belief.

I may also point out that the fear of death that Christians have makes me think that many do not truly believe but still keep the pretense of faith because it is expected by our time.

I mentioned many atheists are passive toward believers concerning their faith. I however, am not. A good Christian would feel pity for me, because after all I am going to burn in their hell for not believing in their chosen deity. And they might feel as though I am a lost soul. And if they really believe the good parts of their doctrines, they should seek to save me for I am deluded lamb astray from the light of God. This may be surprising, but I feel exactly the same way. To me, I feel pity and true sadness for those deluded by whatever religion was dominant in their childhood. And I wish I could to save these people. So I feel it is important to do what I can to help people to question their beliefs.

I use this analogy on occasion.
Suppose that I told you I believed in the Easter Bunny. I knew he was real, he told me so himself and I feel it in my heart.

That'd be a little wacky, yes? You might want to have me committed so I may get the help I need. Because, you know full well, even with basic common sense, you know I'm wrong.

But now I tell you that it makes me happy. And my family goes hunting for the invisible easter eggs he places about the yard every sunday and it brings us together as a close family and gives us purpose in life.

Ohh... That complicates things doesn't it... You dont want to strip something dear to me away do you? You know I'm deluded and you might even pity me, but do you call the asylum? Or would you choose to respect my beliefs.

This is the choice I have to make when deciding to debating against religion or not... It's not an easy decision at first. But in this analogy, from my own point of view, if you did indeed decide to have me committed, and I learned why the easter bunny can't possibly be real and that I can find purpose in life outside the easter bunny, I would wholeheartedly thank you who has saved me from my delusion. So this may help you to understand why I take a step beyond atheism and pursue the path of anti-theism.

My path does not take the course of animosity toward religion, nor does it take the path of me saying my way is the only correct way. "Trust those who seek truth, doubt those who find it" and Socrates said "The only thing I know is that I know nothing at all" and there is much wisdom in that. I don't have it all figured out, but at the same time I highly doubt those who think they do have it figured out in regards to religion, actually really do. If nothing else, think of how many religions in the world there are today, and that there have been, and all the branches of those. Each and every twig of those religion branches believed so fervently that they had the truth, their way was the correct and only way. Well logically, only one could even -possibly- be true. But the next logical step is to say none are true. At least from my perspective.

But at the same time, I am not completely close minded and again, I am completely open to any discussion with the intent of advancing knowledge and good conversation.

I think I'll trail off here.

I'd love to hear what you think, honestly. I am curious to see what people really think, not just sugar coated cliche dialog that is almost expected in our culture.

---------------
 
Ram From Hell said:
Boo hoo. You hewt my wittle feewings.:D

Nice way to f up the words credibility (twice) and intellectually, btw. Must be some good stuff burnin' in that bowl tonight! I suppose it lends a little less of each to your come back. You'd almost think I hit a nerve with you based on your response.

Glad you can raise a flag. I'll raise a beer, and we'll see who gets more salutes. :cheers:

I need help in raising my penis...
 
Rapunzel41 said:
...On one last note (having nothing to do with god other than the claim that wine is the food of the gods), unlike Prof last night, I did not forego my wine with and after dinner. In fact, I enjoyed a lovely dry white Riesling from Jones of Washington my husband and I “discoveredâ€￾ during a recent trip to the Wenatchee Valley of Washington state. I’m usually more of a red wine fan, but I highly recommend this one! I am very much enjoying the dialogue being engaged in here. ...

Off topic but important...how about starting a Preferred Wine Thread? We consume barrels...well, quite a bit...are still in the process of constructing a wine cellar...have to admit, my Ph.D. (Chemist) spouse is the expert, so I just provide courier, 'corkage' and consumption services.

Run with it Rapunzel! We may find a few here that also enjoy fruit of the vine! Just imagine, a truck site with religion, cigar and wine threads! Kewl!
 
Django said:
Yup... Typing in a hurry cuz yer wife is waiting dinner is a bitch. Scuse the typos. But they're just a minor annoyance.

However it seems that it is you more than I who is affected by this issue.

First, I don't "do a bowl" or smoke shit... Haven't in about 25 years.... Wrong agian, Eric....

It always hits a nerve when someone uses lies to prove a point. Thus my reaction to your comments.

I'm not mad....... I just have a keen sense of truth and a dedication to it....

Either you didn't do your homework and thus were ill informed about Einstein or you simply lied to make your point.....

I have nothing against you, Eric...... We agree on a lot of subjects. yer an intelligent guy and I respect that more than you may know.... I know that yer a very competative individual. However, it is regrettable that winning and dominance is more valuable to you than telling the truth.

I'm a bit like Roy with respect to rhetoric and arguments. They should actually be true..... Yours were not.....

So, by all means.....have that beer and enjoy yourself with it.....

You lost this one.....

Peace.

D

Not so fast.

First, I'm sorry to hear that you no longer partake.:canabis: You're not going to tell me you never inhaled, right?:D It was not an accusation that you were smoking dope. After all, how would I know. It was just a more elegant way of asking "Are you high?", as in "WTF are you thinking".

Now, as to whether or not the quote was a lie, it was not. As to whether or not I did my homework, I did. Perhaps you were indeed in a hurry, because it did not allow you time to research my statement. You merely denied its veracity, and proceeded to use the premise of it being a falsehood to lash out at what you thought was me making a thoughtless post.

So let's get one thing straight. I did not quote Einstein for the purpose of stating that he did not believe in god, which as I studied before I quoted him, he does. I chose that particular quote because it highlighted the absurdity of what passes as conventional religious beliefs.

Now do me/us a favor and read it again, and pay particular attention to the fact that he actually wrote this. It is documented, well known, and obviously to the point.

The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.

-- Albert Einstein, in a letter responding to philosopher Eric Gutkind, who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt; quoted from James Randerson, "Childish Superstition: Einstein's Letter Makes View of Religion Relatively Clear

Oh, and by the way, there's more:

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.

-- Albert Einstein, obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955


I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.


-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press


More? OK!

It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.

-- Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930


One strength of the Communist system ... is that it has some of the characteristics of a religion and inspires the emotions of a religion.


-- Albert Einstein, Out Of My Later Years (1950), thanks to Laird Wilcox, ed, "The Degeneration of Belief"


Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being.

-- Albert Einstein, 1936, responding to a child who wrote and asked if scientists pray. Source: Albert Einstein: The Human Side, Edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffmann


Oh, and speaking of lies....

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.


-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press


Django, it's your own darned fault for jumping the gun on this one. The quote is as real as your belief that I would pass off a lie as fact to make a point. I am fairly sure that if you'd had more time to respond, given as well as I think I know you, you would have researched it for yourself before attacking my honesty.

I wasn't looking to win or lose anything.

Nevertheless, I await your apology.;)

RFH out.
 
Ram From Hell said:
Nevertheless, I await your apology.;)

RFH out.

You may just wait in vain.................

If your intentions were honorable and sincere. Only you and God will know that. But, I trust whom I trust...and you haven't arrived there yet.

We can play "dial-a-quote" all day long... with the same results...

But, I do agree with you, (from the body of his writings) that Einstein was not aethist... If you had admitted that from the outset, we wouldn't be wasting time with this shit... But since you contribute copiously on the "no God" side of the argument, it stands to reason that you wouldn't extemporaneously switch sides by virtue of the Einstein quotes.... Had you prefaced the Einstein quote with the admission that (in your opinion) Einstein was not an atheist, your excuse would hold water...

You did not. My statement stands...

Einstein was very spiritual and romantic, 'specially for a scientist. He wrote about it often.... He even referred to his brand of spirituality as "pure religion"..... Which would not be my choice of words, cuz I'm anti religion, but I think the meaning is clear.... Einstein gave us every indication that he was spiritually in awe of the Majesty of creation.... He followed that which he considered to be noble, honest, pure and righteous..... And in my mind, good and God are inseparable.


As incredible as it might seem, I may have failed to communicate to you that I'm not a Christian Evangelist... I don't really give a rat's ass what anyone else believes. Hell, even Christians are in bitter disagreement over what they believe. I do NOT believe in Hell and damnation... I don't look down on your beliefs and I don't think I'm better than anyone else. Hell, what someone believes doesn't mean shit to the Universe anyway....

But atheists are in such a minority that they seem to have the need to "prove something" by arguing with to those who do believe in God.... As I've said before... The existence or non existence of God cannot be proven anyway... Period.. End of story.

Finally, and in the interest of peace and goodwill I will say this to you, Eric:

If, in the deepest recesses of your heart, you truly believe that I was wrong to accuse you of lying so you can gain the upper hand in a debate.... then I apologize. But if you (as I very keenly suspect) are simply lying to feed your hunger for dominance... Then you can kiss my fragrant dego anus.....

I hope that werx for you.

D
 
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Azmal said:
Anyway, thought I'd add something here concerning Einstein. To the best of our knowledge he was not atheist, but more importantly he was not a theist either like many defenders of religion will try to claim. Realistically he was more of a deist, he did not believe in a personal god with all the silly fairy tales, and frankly I don't think many Christians understand the difference. I think if ole Al were alive to day he'd probably be an atheist. Keep in mind our time differences.

If you're a deist you believe there's a god that created the universe and let it be. End of story, it doesn't want worship, it doesn't want your prayers, it doesn't even 'want' at all. No heaven, no hell, no talking snake, no great flood, no walking on water. If you do believe in a personal god of any sort you're classified as a theist. When someone talks about spiritual experiences (concerning god) they're talking about a theistic god, a personal god. That is a vastly different god from a deistic god. And when you claim to 'believe' one way or another you're by default making very staggering claims about the way the universe is. A universe with a personal god would obviously be a very different god from a deistic god.

I think logic and reason alone should rule out the reasonable possibility that a personal god exists but of course I can't rule out that there was an initial creator that started the universe (not that it made man, or 'designed' anything or made plans) so lets assume it holds equal grounds with any other hypothesis of what started the universe. What reason would anyone have to actually -believe- in it? It's just as viable as the next idea till we get enough evidence. I think it is a lack of human imagination that leads one to believe there is a creator. I surely don't know but I imagine it's far more exotic and strange than what we imagine when we say 'god' Or it could even be that the universe has simply always existed and there a series of big bangs, and expansions, and big crunches. We live too short of lives but luckily our human species has developed recorded history and observations and the scientific method so maybe we really will have a better model painted of our universe.

I think what you wrote makes alot of sense. I think it clears alot up, I do believe in a personal God, I beleive he has the power to do anything. i feel like I have witnessed that power so it is easy for me to justify his existence in my own mind.
As far as albert einstein, he is just a guy to me. I am not one to give more wiehgt to some one says because they are popular, a genius, or my best friend. I take what everyone says with a grain of salt. So what einstein says to me about God, or if a L' is better than an SRT10, or which team should win the super bowl is all the same.
 
Django said:
You may just wait in vain.................

If your intentions were honorable and sincere. Only you and God will know that. But, I trust whom I trust...and you haven't arrived there yet.

We can play "dial-a-quote" all day long... with the same results...

But, I do agree with you, (from the body of his writings) that Einstein was not aethist... If you had admitted that from the outset, we wouldn't be wasting time with this shit... But since you contribute copiously on that side of the argument, it stands to reason that you wouldn't extemporaneously switch sides by virtue of the Einstein quotes.... Had you prefaced the Einstein quote with the admission that (in your opinion) Einstein was not an atheist, your excuse would hold water...

You did not. My statement stands...

Einstein was very spiritual and romantic, 'specially for a scientist. He wrote about it often.... He even referred to his brand of spirituality as "pure religion"..... Which would not be my choice of words, cuz I'm anti religion, but I think the meaning is clear.... Einstein gave us every indication that he was spiritually in awe of the Majesty of creation.... He followed that which he considered to be noble, honest, pure and righteous..... And in my mind, good and God are inseparable.


What I may have failed to communicate is that I'm not a Christian Evangelist... I don't really give a rat's ass what anyone else believes. Hell, even Christians are in bitter disagreement over what they believe. I do NOT believe in Hell and damnation... I don't look down on other beliefs and I don't think I'm better than anyone else. Hell, what someone believes doesn't mean shit to the Universe anyway....

But atheists are in such a minority that they seem to have the need to "prove something" by arguing with to those who do believe in God.... As I've said before... The existence or non existence of God cannot be proven... Period.. End of story.

Finally, and in the interest of peace and goodwill I will say this to you:

If, in the deepest recesses of your heart, you truly believe that I was wrong to accuse you of lying so you can gain the upper hand in a debate.... then I apologize. But if you (as I very keenly suspect) are simply lying to feed your hunger for dominance... Then you can kiss my fragrant dego anus.....

I hope that werx for you.

D

Ah, but you cannot put words in my mouth that were not spoken. Further, my retort was in no way shape or form an excuse. What I wrote that sent you into a verbal dither was quite benign, and without prejudice. If you read more into it than was there and were stung by it, it's not my problem nor mine to ask forgiveness for.

Careful, that statement cuts both ways.

This, on the other hand does not.


The quote, a true and accurate one, was given by itself. It was not prefaced with any remarks whatsoever. Only what you see in italics above. If by the simple virtue that I have stated that I do not have faith that you are free to assume that anything that comes from my fingertips is a statement of denial of a god, then you are in fact making assumptions and/or putting words in my mouth. The thought that I would be required to preface it to mean one thing or another, rather than allowing the reader to make up his or her own mind, is wholly without merit.

If you choose to pass judgment on me simply for quoting someone else, in full context and without embellishment or remark, then you sir do owe me an apology.

In deference to your anus, I rather think you should focus on your penis, which you have quite well stepped upon with your garish dego boots.:congrats:
 

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