The Skeptics Thread

Invisible Pink Unicorn, Flying Spaghetti Monster, Santa Claus and God
by Rich Deem
IntroductionOne of the most common objections to the existence of God comes from arguments about the existence of Santa Claus, invisible pink unicorns, and the flying spaghetti monster. Although it is not possible to prove absolutely the non-existence of Santa Claus, most people cease to believe in his existence by age 10. Although the existence of Santa Claus has not been disproved, the weight of evidence suggests that he does not exist. Likewise, although we cannot prove invisible pink unicorns or flying spaghetti monsters do not exist, we tend to reject their existence, since none have ever been detected. Shouldn't the same logic apply to the existence of God?

God created by mankind?Most skeptics believe that humans invented God as a means of comfort against an uncertain world that is filled with peril and disappointment. However, if people were to have invented the God of Christianity, it is unlikely that it would be the demanding God of the Bible. The God of the Bible is described as holy1 - without sin and without the ability to commit sin.2 The holiness of God is described as being above anything that humans can attain, such that no human can stand before Him as holy.3 Behaving more morally upright than most other people is not sufficient to escape the punishment of the God of the Bible.4

It also seems unlikely that people would believe in the existence of a being who is known not to exist. For example, most of us believe in Santa Claus as small children, but give up that belief by age 10.5 People do not believe in false things, even if those things make them feel better. If people routinely believed in things just to make them fell better, we would all continue to believe in the existence of Santa Claus.

In addition to the above problems, believing a lie contradicts the beliefs and teachings of the Bible. In fact, Luke, in the introduction to his gospel, says that he has carefully investigated everything so that the truth may be known.6 Christians are told to believe and practice only truth,7 and warned against believing and practicing lies.8 So, the idea that they would violate their conscious and beliefs just to feel better makes no sense.

Invisible pink unicorns?Can we determine the existence/non-existence of invisible pink unicorns? Actually, the answer is "yes." Unicorns would be pink if they reflected pink electromagnetic radiation (i.e., light). However, in order to be invisible, the unicorns would reflect no electromagnetic radiation. Therefore, the term "invisible pink unicorn" is self contradictory. Therefore, we know absolutely that they could not exist. I don't know who invented the term "invisible pink unicorns," but they were obviously deficient in their physics education.

However, for the sake of argument, let's change the term and drop the "pink" part. Is it possible to determine whether or not invisible unicorns exist somewhere in the universe? Technically, it would be very unlikely that any organism would be invisible. The only reasonable chemical basis for living organisms in this universe is carbon-based life. This would ensure that unicorns would always be visible. Although possible that unicorns might be invisible due to being made of anti-matter, such existence would be problematic, since their interaction with ordinary matter would result in their immediate and spectacular destruction. Could unicorns be made of exotic matter? While possible, there is no evidence from physics that any creatures could be made of exotic matter. At present, it is possible to detect exotic matter only indirectly through particle physics and through its ability to bend light (only detectable through gravitational lensing of distant galaxies). At this point, we would be unable to detect a unicorn made of exotic matter. So, although we can be fairly certain that invisible unicorns do not exist in the universe, we could not take the strong aunicornist stance.

Is it possible that pink unicorns might exist somewhere in the universe? As of today, we don't know if life exists outside of our Solar System. No rocky planets have been discovered outside of our Solar System, although the ability to easily detect such planets will not be available until later this decade. Some scientists believe that life is common throughout the universe, while others think that all life or only advanced life is rare in the universe. The origin of life by naturalistic means seems extremely improbable. In addition, the earth seems to exhibit unusual design, since the existence of tectonic activity on such a small planet for such a long period of time is probably the result of an extremely unlikely collision early in its history. Without tectonic activity, the earth would be a waterworld, since continents would not form. Advanced life (beyond fish) cannot exist on such a planet.

Atheism requires that abiogenesis (a naturalistic origin of life) is at least possible, if not likely, and that habitable planets are common throughout the universe. Such a scenario, if true, would make it likely that pink unicorns do exist somewhere in the universe. Therefore, an atheist would be illogical to assume a strong aunicornist stance. The unicorn argument as an argument against the existence of God fails logically, since it is not possible to definitively show that unicorns do not exist somewhere in the universe.

Flying Spaghetti MonsterThe Flying Spaghetti Monster was an invention of Bobby Henderson in response to the State Board of Education of Kansas's attempt to promote intelligent design. It makes for a very humorous picture, although it provides virtually no analogy to God's character. Spaghetti and meatballs are the physical creation of intelligent beings and could never exist outside of a human domain.

God vs. unicorns and Santa ClausIs the existence of God comparable to the existence of Santa Claus spaghetti, or unicorns? According to tradition, Santa Claus is a man who lives at the North Pole on planet earth. Explorers and satellite images have failed to detect the dwelling place of Santa Claus, so we can be fairly certain that he does not exist. Since the polar ice cap is likely to melt within the next 100 years, we will have further evidence that nobody actually lives at the North Pole.

The existence of an invisible pink unicorn or a flying spaghetti monster has been discussed above. The existence of such creatures has been hypothesized to occur within our universe. However, the God of the Bible is transcendent to the universe, since the universe cannot contain Him.9 The Bible says that no one can see God in His glory,10 since He is invisible.11 God is a non-physical being.12 In addition, God created the entire universe,13 including time itself,14 which did not exist prior to God creating it. Santa Claus, unicorns and flying spaghetti are contingent beings, whereas God is non-contingent. Therefore, to make an analogy between God and either Santa Claus or invisible pink unicorns or flying spaghetti is logically flawed from the outset.

No evidence for God's existence?Skeptics love to claim that there is no proof or evidence that any kind of God actually exists. However, such claims represent mere hand waving to avoid critically examining the evidence. I was raised as an agnostic, but became a deist in a secular college (University of Southern California) as a result of my training in biological sciences. It was obvious to this honors student that the "scientific" explanation for the origin of life was completely unreasonable. Since those days (the early 1970's) the evidence contradicting a naturalistic origin of life has become much stronger. Even more compelling than the evidence against abiogenesis is the evidence for the design of the universe. The scientific evidence shows irrefutably that the universe had a beginning. In contrast, atheism would predict that the universe would be eternal. In fact, this belief was prevalent among atheists until the evidence against the steady state theory became overwhelming last century. Although it is possible that the universe could arise by itself, the level to which it is fine tuned is contrary to this hypothesis. In fact, the degree of fine tuning is up to one part in 10120.

Further evidence for divine design can be found in our own species. We are the only species of mammal that exhibits consciousness, the ability to appreciate art, and the ability to make moral judgments.

Conclusion The idea that God is a made-up concept to soothe our fears makes no sense, since we reject the existence of other made-up figures that might, likewise, make us feel better. A comparison between the existence of God (a non-contingent being) and the existence of Santa Claus or invisible pink unicorns (contingent beings) fails on many levels, not the least of which is that their fundamental natures (non-physical vs. physical) are vastly different. The idea that there is no evidence to support the existence of God is clearly false. The evidence was clear enough for me to convert from agnosticism to deism in the absence of efforts by theists. Anthony Flew, a lifelong proponent of atheism recently became a deist on the basis of evidence for design. In subsequent interviews, Flew stated that he "had to go where the evidence leads." Philosophical arguments like invisible pink unicorns are great ways to avoid examining evidence, but such an approach is ultimately dishonest
 
Prof said:
Why would one cite a bible reference to someone who does not believe in God or accept the bible?

That is like using Speech text book reference to argue a law of physics...or citing our constitution to convince Ben Laudin to turn himself in...

It just confounds and confuses the situation.
good point: you can find that response here
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/bib-docu.html
 
IN ALL SERIOUSNESS, I HAVE THE READING COMPREHENSION OF A 5TH GRADER AT BEST. SO MOST POSTS I PROLLY DONT UNDERSTAND AND SOME OF THE STUFF OFF THE WEBSITE I DONT HAVE FULL GRASP OF EITHER.

right, caps lock, not going to retype that
 
Alright, look... that thing you copied over is riddled with logical fallacies I could spend the time to explain it in depth but I don't even know if anyone here actually thinks those are good points so I'll hold off on that. From now on I intend to be much less long winded. Or try to anyway. Thing is, it takes me longer to think of a short way to speak my mind than to make the lengthy attention-span-mutilating posts I've made before.

I appreciate the effort though... It's a start anyway, If you do feel strongly about some of the points that text you copied had in it, address them individually. Cause I could just as easily do a google search and find counter retorts to that the objective here on this forum is more of a personal one.

So, simply put, I don't want to ignore the points you copied over. I do feel they are erroneous and can explain why and hope to make sense to you but tell me plainly which points you believe to be true or good.

I really gotta run for now though.

By the way I appreciate criticism on my delivery method of my points. I'd rather be an effective efficient speaker but I think I come across as antagonistic and pretentiously long winded instead.. quite the opposite
 
I dont believe in evolution, if that was the case and we evolved from chimps, then why are chimps still around...evolution means the old dying off.

What about evolution—doesn't that disprove the Bible? Firstly, let me make it clear that I do believe in variations within species. Some dogs appear to have evolved from large to small (or small to large), but no actual "evolution" has taken place. They are still dogs. There is no evidence for man evolving from primates (each having a common ancestor), generally known as "the theory of evolution." Professor Louis Bounoure, Director of Research, National Center of Scientific Research so rightly stated: ""Evolution is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless."" Sir Arthur Keith (Sir Arthur Keith wrote the foreword to the 100th edition of Origin of the Species) said, ""Evolution is unproved and unprovable."" Malcolm Muggeridge, the famous British journalist and philosopher said, ""I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially the extent to which it's been applied, will be one of the great jokes in history books of the future."" Dr. T. N. Tahmisian of the Atomic Energy Commission said, ""Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever.""



Scrap the Current Theory?
Look at this new discovery: "Paleontologists have discovered a new skeleton in the closet of human ancestry that is likely to force science to revise, if not scrap, current theories of human origins" (USA Today March 21, 2001). Reuters reported that the discovery left "scientists of human evolution . . . confused ," saying, "Lucy may not even be a direct human ancestor after all." In truth, evolution isn't "scientific." It's a theory. Dr. Kent Hovind—an authority on evolution has a standing offer of $250,000 for anyone who can give him scientific evidence that evolution is true (www.drdino.com). Evolutionists should take him to court. They could become famous. They could make this another "Scopes" trial, but they won't, because they can't. All they have is faith in a theory. In fact, evolution qualifies as a religion. The dictionary says of the word "religion": "A set of beliefs concerned with explaining the origins and purposes of the universe . . ." Evolutionists even have their own religious language: "We believe, perhaps, maybe, probably, could've, possibly . . . " Their founding father of the faith is Charles Darwin. Their god of the religion of evolution is "nature," often referred to by the faithful as "Mother Nature." She is the one who is responsible for everything we can see in creation. What's more, she's very attractive to lust-filled men. They gravitate to her like a moth to a flame. That's because she's deaf, blind, and mute. She doesn't hear anything, she doesn't see anything, and what's most important—she doesn't say anything. Mother Nature doesn't have any moral dictates. That's why evolution is so appealing. It is called "idolatry" (making up a false god) and is a transgression of the First of the Ten Commandments.

Microevolution is observable, while macroevolution takes a great leap of blind faith. If Christians had as much faith in the Bible as evolutionists have in the theory of evolution, we would see revival. Like little children, they believe without the need of a thread of evidence. Evolution doesn't disprove the existence of God. It just reveals that those who believe it are truly capable of faith in the invisible. It confirms Napoleon's observation: "Man will believe anything, as long as it's not in the Bible."
 
Bible stated the Earth was round first...................way before Columbus

Isaiah 40:22 (written 2800 years ago): "It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth."


The Bible informs us here that the earth is round. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, it was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world. He wrote: "It was the Lord who put it into my mind. I could feel His hand upon me . . . there is no question the inspiration was from the Holy Spirit because He comforted me with rays of marvelous illumination from the Holy Scriptures . . ." (From his diary, in reference to his discovery of "the New World").
 
How so long ago before telescopes would it have been written of how vast the solar system and stars are...it also has the same message in Isaiah...2 confimed places in the Bible.

Jeremiah 33:22 (written 2500 years ago): "As the hosts of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured."
Isaiah 40:22 "He stretches out the heavens like a canopy" 26"Lift your eyes and look to the Heavens, Who created all these? Who brings out the starry hosts one by one and knows each by name?"


The Bible claimed that there are billions of stars ("host of heaven" is the biblical term for the stars). When it made this statement, no one knew how vast the numbers of stars were as only about 1,100 were observable. Now we know that there are billions of stars, and that they cannot be numbered
 
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How can archiologistst explain how artifacts from 1000 years ago on the same plain as dinosaur bones...dinosaurs werent around 6000 years ago...or did my boy who wrote this in the book of Job find the first dinosuar remains(did someone really thousands of years ago find a skeleton of a brontasuras and put it all together)...i think the Bible has some truth...

read JOB 40 & 41
15 "Look at the behemoth, [a]
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.

16 What strength he has in his loins,
what power in the muscles of his belly!

17 His tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.

18 His bones are tubes of bronze,
his limbs like rods of iron.

19 He ranks first among the works of God,
yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.

20 The hills bring him their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.

21 Under the lotus plants he lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.

22 The lotuses conceal him in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround him.

23 When the river rages, he is not alarmed;
he is secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth.

24 Can anyone capture him by the eyes, [c]
or trap him and pierce his nose?

Job 41
1 "Can you pull in the leviathan [d] with a fishhook
or tie down his tongue with a rope?

2 Can you put a cord through his nose
or pierce his jaw with a hook?

3 Will he keep begging you for mercy?
Will he speak to you with gentle words?

4 Will he make an agreement with you
for you to take him as your slave for life?

5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird
or put him on a leash for your girls?

6 Will traders barter for him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?

7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons
or his head with fishing spears?

8 If you lay a hand on him,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!

9 Any hope of subduing him is false;
the mere sight of him is overpowering.

10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him.
Who then is able to stand against me?

11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.

12 "I will not fail to speak of his limbs,
his strength and his graceful form.

13 Who can strip off his outer coat?
Who would approach him with a bridle?

14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth,
ringed about with his fearsome teeth?

15 His back has [e] rows of shields
tightly sealed together;

16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.

17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.

18 His snorting throws out flashes of light;
his eyes are like the rays of dawn.

19 Firebrands stream from his mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.

20 Smoke pours from his nostrils
as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.

21 His breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from his mouth.

22 Strength resides in his neck;
dismay goes before him.

23 The folds of his flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.

24 His chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.

25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before his thrashing.

26 The sword that reaches him has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.

27 Iron he treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.

28 Arrows do not make him flee;
slingstones are like chaff to him.

29 A club seems to him but a piece of straw;
he laughs at the rattling of the lance.

30 His undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.

31 He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
 
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how does the Bible mention this stuff way before its time!!!!!


some freaking tell me, how did stuff made up 1000 of years ago come true...because it was from God...and it is truth

those post just said, talking about a dinosuar (job 40), the earth being round(Isaiah 40:22), and the counts less number of stars. are these all not true...ARE THEY NOT TRUE???
so the Bible says the Dinosuars exist, the earth is round, and there are a countless number of stars...hmmmm....proven by science
 
I dont want to get ahead of myself...
Daniel 4:37 "those who walk in his pride he is able to humble" - meaning if your are a Christian dont think you are better than a non-beliver but treat them with respect and love.
Proverbs 24-17 "Do not gloat when your enemy falls, when he stumbles do not let your heart rejoice, or the Lord will see and disapprove and turn his wrath on away from him.

I just want to share what has made a great impact on my life. But like I said before I will defend my faith in God.
 
Good posts and I believe much as you do.

You can't prove faith,hope,God to someone who is totally opposed to it.Faith comes from the spirit ( a spiritual force) and skeptics are operating solely on a mental level (in the soul area : mind,will,emotions).

It is not possible for the non-spiritual to comprehend that which is discernible only to the spirit.They have knowingly or unknowingly shut off input from their spirit in favor of that which makes sense to them : things which are logical.Faith defies all logic of human reasoning.

God has said that He chose the foolish things of the world to confound the wise (God's "system" works ONLY by faith) .To an unbeliever,faith is foolishness for there exits no logical explanation for it or for it to take precedence over reason .

As well developed as the greatest mind of all time might be ,it is nothing compared to what is available from the spirit.

As I am sure Azmal will logically and methodically dispute everything that I have written and that Burnt Rubber has written ,this serves only as entertainment for other readers.He will not believe and I will still be a believer .


If I remember correctly,it is supposed to be impossible for a bumblebee to fly due to it's wings supposedly not being able to generate enough lift to overcome the weight of it's body.That's logical.

Apparently the bumblebee isn't a logical being :D
 
HOT RAM said:
Good posts and I believe much as you do.

You can't prove faith,hope,God to someone who is totally opposed to it.Faith comes from the spirit ( a spiritual force) and skeptics are operating solely on a mental level (in the soul area : mind,will,emotions).

It is not possible for the non-spiritual to comprehend that which is discernible only to the spirit.They have knowingly or unknowingly shut off input from their spirit in favor of that which makes sense to them : things which are logical.Faith defies all logic of human reasoning.

God has said that He chose the foolish things of the world to confound the wise (God's "system" works ONLY by faith) .To an unbeliever,faith is foolishness for there exits no logical explanation for it or for it to take precedence over reason .

As well developed as the greatest mind of all time might be ,it is nothing compared to what is available from the spirit.

As I am sure Azmal will logically and methodically dispute everything that I have written and that Burnt Rubber has written ,this serves only as entertainment for other readers.He will not believe and I will still be a believer .


If I remember correctly,it is supposed to be impossible for a bumblebee to fly due to it's wings supposedly not being able to generate enough lift to overcome the weight of it's body.That's logical.

Apparently the bumblebee isn't a logical being :D

To a prius owner a Ram SRT10 isnt logical, but it exists...:D

did you get my $10?????
 
Spamming me with stuff doesn't allow for any focus. I'll touch on the points later when I have time. I'd rather you have not copied half the internet though. Tell you what. Make a post with a few points you want to contest and we'll go back and forth, cool? It's all in good fun anyway.

I will say for now though that your comments about evolution reveals to me that you don't understand it. If you don't understand it, even the barest of basics of it, how can you reasonably say you don't believe it?

Evolution is a fact that doesn't disprove god but just makes his role as creator of humans as highly improbable.

Hot Ram: "It is not possible for the non-spiritual to comprehend that which is discernible only to the spirit.They have knowingly or unknowingly shut off input from their spirit in favor of that which makes sense to them : things which are logical.Faith defies all logic of human reasoning."

Hot Ram: You're making a statement that is a belief by itself and you assume it is a universal truth. On what grounds do you conclude that faith is separate from any other mental function?
 
Azmal said:
Spamming me with stuff doesn't allow for any focus. I'll touch on the points later when I have time. I'd rather you have not copied half the internet though. Tell you what. Make a post with a few points you want to contest and we'll go back and forth, cool? It's all in good fun anyway.

I will say for now though that your comments about evolution reveals to me that you don't understand it. If you don't understand it, even the barest of basics of it, how can you reasonably say you don't believe it?

Evolution is a fact that doesn't disprove god but just makes his role as creator of humans as highly improbable.

Hot Ram: "It is not possible for the non-spiritual to comprehend that which is discernible only to the spirit.They have knowingly or unknowingly shut off input from their spirit in favor of that which makes sense to them : things which are logical.Faith defies all logic of human reasoning."

Hot Ram: You're making a statement that is a belief by itself and you assume it is a universal truth. On what grounds do you conclude that faith is separate from any other mental function?


its only about 1/4 of the internet:D

hey, TX is close enough for the AZ/west coast GTG
 
My balls itch and it can be proven by 2nd hand observation and fact....I will post pics if nobody believes me :marchmellow:
 
TheSickness said:
My balls itch and it can be proven by 2nd hand observation and fact....I will post pics if nobody believes me :marchmellow:

you had to know this was coming
:needpics:
 
Mikey is on acid. Lord Jesus, bro. You can't post a photo like that in the non-offensive section. You used to be a mod...you know that.

:puke:

D
 
Django said:
Mikey is on acid. Lord Jesus, bro. You can't post a photo like that in the non-offensive section. You used to be a mod...you know that.

:puke:

D
wHAT PIC lolololol :marchmellow: He did ask for it Timmy :D
 

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