New Promotion = Supercharger

[BurntRubber]

Gents,
Please can't we just remain on topic here. Jeff- Roy does speak from experience as many others here do, sure he may post his reply in a different nature than others-but if you examine his post he has good intentions to inform. And that my friends is one of the reasons we frequent this great site.



Back on topic- The question of why the Ford can take it and the Dodge is a gamble- IMHO the Ford was designed to operate with a blower- now I don't know positively but I assume Ford installed forged pistons to be run on that engine. There's a thread here (Second Piston thread) where a SRT engineer elaborated albeit briefly that our engines are already at the stress threshold of dependability, I believe he even mentions upgrading the internals. This coming from an SRT engineer.

Now I have to admit there are some that have carefully built and tuned and tuned to enable them to run with a Roe or Paxton without touching the bottom end- I quietly applaud these guys who did it smart- (precision tuning would be KEY to making it work. But honestly after seeing the condition of the internals of my blown up engine- I believe these folks are on borrowed time..... And that's my honest opinion- take it for what it's worth. I would do some research and formulate a solid gameplan of attack.

I would like to jump back to your original post on the thread and offer my congratulations on your promotion.

Yes and NO to this...hear me out.
The no would be, that the engineers were talking about the 08 (GenIV)engine in a Viper, not the genIII that we have. Not that ours are not stressed but the GenIV is a much different engine.
The yes...Ford L's have forged pistons and an iron block, You will see many of them going through engines as well once the boost is turned up quite a bit. Remember the anount of power these engines are putting out and the compression they have. the L engine was designed with a blower in mind. If you want some nice NA power...Striker heads, comp coupe cam, T&D's(for stiffness) ported intake

 

[HaulinAsp]

Yes and NO to this...hear me out.
The no would be, that the engineers were talking about the 08 (GenIV)engine in a Viper, not the genIII that we have. Not that ours are not stressed but the GenIV is a much different engine.
The yes...Ford L's have forged pistons and an iron block, You will see many of them going through engines as well once the boost is turned up quite a bit. Remember the anount of power these engines are putting out and the compression they have. the L engine was designed with a blower in mind. If you want some nice NA power...Striker heads, comp coupe cam, T&D's(for stiffness) ported intake

I had to go back and looky-

QUESTION: 5. I understand that the pistons for the '08 engine were not intended for use beyond the stock application and that if someone wants to mod the engine a piston change out is adviseable. Is this true? If so do you have any specs on the preferred pistons to use?

ANSWER: The 2008 engine is a highly tuned and highly stressed engine. We left few stones unturned in the development or calibration process. Achieving 600 HP required that many of the parts be stressed to their limits and the pistons are one of the most highly stressed components in the engine. If the customer modifies the engine to increase the output by any significant amount (more than just say headers, i.e.supercharger, turbo, NOS), a quality forged piston would be a good idea. We don’t currently offer a replacement piston but many of the aftermarket suppliers could probably offer a good replacement part. Follow their recommendations for fit. Also be careful to make any adjustments for balance if the weight is much different than the stock piston. Don't forget to use a good engine builder and make sure the calibration matches the modifications!


That says enough for me to exercise caution.....

 

[HaulinAsp]

Someone want to find out what the differences are between the Gen3 pistons and the Gen4 pistons??? I am suspicious on them being the same bastard pistons as the Gen3's.....

 

[BurntRubber]

Someone want to find out what the differences are between the Gen3 pistons and the Gen4 pistons??? I am suspicious on them being the same bastard pistons as the Gen3's.....

Maybe, but the engine is different internally. stroke, bore, heads,cam...intake is different and compression. Dodge changed about 85% of the engine

Again, there are plenty of GenIII motors that have over 700rwhp that have been running those numbers for thousands of miles.

 

[mr. anderson]

here's the input on the ford lightnings from a past owner. yes, lightnings are designed with a blower in mind. the crank is forged, the rods....are not the strongest. the pistons, not forged either. what does help is that it comes with an air to water intecooler inbetween the blower assembly and the intake manifold. no matter what the add ons with these trucks, once a tuner/chip is put in it- the tune is CRUCIAL to the motors livelyhood. when the predator/diablo tuner first came out there was a rash of vented blocks because the 93 octane tune was WAY to aggressive in timing.

to this day problems still occur due to vented blocks and it is usually the tune that is utimately the cause.

yes there are plenty of stock blocks out there pushing 450-500rwhp. but it took a few of the fellas out there to find out the hard way how to do it safely, and even then it's not garanteed not blow.

 

[flchub]

703 rwhp stock bottom end,get a good tune and ur motor shall last,if it doesnt plenty here are ready to say i told u so,seems like the norm for this place.....please let his engine blow up so i can tell him i was right and sorry.

bunch of tools to say the least,and u know who u are

 

[cobraken]

After his rant against Prof I am sure he will only take "advice" that fits his agenda. If he wants to ignore the conservative advice may he proceed with the risk and be prepared if the odds catch him.

 

[RagunCajun]

Tell me why, lightnings come blown from the factory and can get 200 more hp by changing a pully or swapping out blowers. And we can’t put a blower on our N/A engine without fuckin them up?

I have a pulley swap on my L. mr. anderson was dead on. Our trucks(and other factory blown engines. The compression is lower, there are things to lower the ITA's.

You can throw on an after market supercharger or turbo the stock block. You then have a ticking time bomb if you go too aggressive. I went conservative with just a 6lber pulley with supporting mods(wont mention unless asked). I managed 403rwhp/523rwtq. My goal was to have a 12 sec truck. Like you guys, the modding never stops:argh:

I'm sure there are factors that restricts the likelyhood of the viper engines being able to run a certain amount of boost. 5lbs of boost does not seem like a lot but when you start out with 500/500...it makes a big difference. Im guess it will be over 600 to the wheels or close.

I can not comment on the srt's but i know with the Lightnings, A LOT has to do with the tune. The tune will make you get pinned back to the seat or become a member of the vented block club. You are making the right steps though. Research is the key. Judging by your signature, you have atleast a strong 13 sec truck. Not a lot of people on the roads can say that bro!

IMO if you can get some good rwtq numbers w/o going forced induction then do it. Heat soaking is a bitch with blown applications. Sure you can mod it more and help it but it's more $$$$.

You said you needed more power, but that is the goal. 12's at the track, pull harder on the highway, beat a certain buddy of yours or what? Once you are certain of the goal, then you can see the price it will take and just as important the risk.

 

[HV SRT]

With 75K miles you will want to go through the whole motor before you go with a FI motor. I'm installing a Roe on my truck with 17K miles on it. I'm installing forged pistons,rods and push rods. Bigger cam,water/meth injection. There are many other parts I've needed to buy. My fleet and race car builder employee is doing all the work and I've spent over 25K in parts alone to date. The Prof is right. Have a plan and the cash to repair as needed AND THERE WILL BE THE NEED. 700 to 800 hp motors require alot of TLC. But they are a kick in the to drive.:rock: :rock: :rock:

 

[tsmith3]

HP and Tourqe is a drug and very addicting. Once your tolerance is built up to a certain level its time to increase the power. It's only natural to want a little more. I believe some guys on here just don't want you to go into withdrawls is all. Having said that go out and get blown

 

[SrtBrad]

Tell me why, lightnings come blown from the factory and can get 200 more hp by changing a pully or swapping out blowers. And we can’t put a blower on our N/A engine without fuckin them up?
Are you implying roe's product is incapable of, or makes our engine incapable of being used 200 miles per week?

HaulinAsp, i respect your post. It told me what I needed to know, gave me advice from experience, short and sweet. PROF Step off your pedestal and descend to our level! I applaud you making 10x what i do, and as a result think you can give me father figure financial advice, like my income makes me incapable of making a responsible financial decision. You have no idea what I’m financially capable of and never asked your opinion on that to begin with. Keep your assumptions to yourself! Furthermore who do you think you are using me as an example to warn others? For some reason you think your an omniscient oracle and everyone needs your opinion, and your advice is gospel! Think your some kind of superordinate bellwether?


I’m not one of your fucking students and I’m damn sure not your grandkid, so show some respect. You spend more time in EXHIBITION, boastfully flaunting your recent discoveries, news, your wealth of random useless facts, and correcting some one’s grammar syntax or spelling, than talking trucks. And when you do talk trucks this is how you do it! Belittling someone and using opportunity to ennoble yourself and gasconade!

If you come across anything else you want to correct me on GOOD SIR! Send me a pm!
Only thing worse than a bully cop is a fucking teacher!! :banghead:

What is your problem. Prof is a respected member of this community. Please think twice before attacking another member here. He was only trying to give you solid advise. My advise you to is to take back your statement.

 

[Prof]

Jeff, what you said to me is not the issue. The plan and costing out the plan is the important part. Just understand that the planning requires a lot of research and a lot of technical knowledge. While this is not rocket science, there are a lot of subtle aspects that we can help you include if you will let us help.

We are all invested in the success of these trucks.

I'll back out of this since I rub you the wrong way...but listen to the others.

Good luck!

 

[FastRam]

Yes and NO to this...hear me out.
The no would be, that the engineers were talking about the 08 (GenIV)engine in a Viper, not the genIII that we have. Not that ours are not stressed but the GenIV is a much different engine.
The yes...Ford L's have forged pistons and an iron block, You will see many of them going through engines as well once the boost is turned up quite a bit. Remember the anount of power these engines are putting out and the compression they have. the L engine was designed with a blower in mind. If you want some nice NA power...Striker heads, comp coupe cam, T&D's(for stiffness) ported intake

True the engineers were talking specifically of the 2008 engines. I am searching through older sessions to see if any similar comments were made/rasied concerning the gen III. I will post them up once (or if) I find something. Also, when I posted the engineers information, I searched through a lot of Caliber and 6.1 talk before moving onto the Viper sessions. The same party line was stated by the SRT engineers regarding their 4 and 8 cylinder designs and them taking things to the limit when it comes to engine design/performance. I owned a Magnum SRT8 and it's engine was also limited in what you could toss at it. And no the 6.1L doesn't have forged internals either. Like ours, you can bolt-on a S/C, turbo, nitrous, etc. but becareful using it and make sure the tune is dead on.

 

[aldog]

Stress is incredible what it can do to an individual. This is going to be good to watch transpire. Where is my lawn chair and cooler.....hehe.

 

[FastRam]

Someone want to find out what the differences are between the Gen3 pistons and the Gen4 pistons??? I am suspicious on them being the same bastard pistons as the Gen3's.....

I am not sure what the exact differences are but I recall reading somewhere that the Gen IV motor uses the same pistons as the 6.1L Hemi and yes they are hypert..... technology as well.

 

[eddie102870]

im running stock internals with my roe and soaking all this up. at the very least we probably need to swap the pistons out. bone did and balanced the rods and bent a few with a smaller pulley and some gas. so if your gonna stay around 5 lbs. of boost piston alone will more than likely make this motor last. me personally if i have my heads off and rods and pistons out i would go all the way while the motor is out of the truck. it makes no sense to pull a motor just to put pistons. save your cash and do it right while your doing it. just a shade tree mechanics opinion.

 

[rottenronnie]

Just got a second job and a promotion to go with it, so the extra money is going into the vehicle that drives me to work. WTF?

I have 75,000 miles on my engine with no problems or powerloss. Putting down better numbers than most N/A at the track . But I can only assume whats going on inside this beast. As this is my DAILY DRIVER, i cannot park it for months to do a big engine rebuild, vec install and wait for a dyno tune.

I need more power. Im partial to the Roe TMTS as it suits my driving style more from the discriptions i have read. I have ridden in neither so i can only speculate.

Nitrous... Roe.... Or Paxton would be best on my daily driven "mature" engine.
Nitrous is cheapest of course but it scares me with the power im looking.
Roe is easiest to install and i think they can do it with sct now. The Sct tuner is my preference. Although i dont want to refill my meth every week.
The paxton is a bitch to install and i hear it doesnt come alive till high rpm full throttle jaunts?

Are there any other hidden fees or things i need to buy or install before i can put a blower on this? A tune up and headers is a given, and ill deal with the clutch when it fails . Help my guys i respect your opinions. I dont want to wonder blind for 3 months with money burnin in my pockets

In the "old" days, 75,000 miles was an engine that was 3/4 worn out. That (generally) isn't the case now due to better oils, etc. I have around 45,000 on mine at it seems fine.

I would strongly suggest you do a leakdown test especially before going the forced induction route so you won't have blow-by from hell. As Prof pointed out, you are going from 1 to 5 atmospheres which is an important consideration. Twin screws deliver boost fast and these are heavy vehicles. If the cylinders aren't sealing well, a not-so-good situation may turn bad in a hurry.
It sounds like you are anxious to go like hell but this simple test could save you possible grief if you aren't starting with a solid foundation.
Driving from where I am to sea level is like installing a 2 p.s.i. blower, you are asking the engine to seal over double that pressure.

On a personal note, I looked into f.i., road in and raced a few of those trucks, talked to a LOT of people, read the info and I am still happy with the route I went.

If all is well and you go the f.i. route (or any H.P. route for that matter), as many are now aware:
TUNING IS CRITICAL. GO WITH AN EXPERIENCED TUNER!


There is a lot of good info from several members in this particular thread.

It would be nice if we could increase the power and not have anything fail. In my case, I did the mods, and ripped 2nd gear out of the auto in no time (with street tires). Now with drag radials there is even more stress on various parts and pieces.
I don't know your financial status nor do I care but at least plan for those extra costs that seem to creep in as the power levels rise. These trucks are more expensive to mod and maintain than many other performance vehicles.

Ron (if you are looking for opinions from members, this is one of them) M.

 

[SRT-MIKE]

He has 75k on the motor, so what. Are you gonna to granny it for the remainder of its life or are you gonna drive it hard til it blows?
I'm with the second choice. A few here have blown their NA engines up with under 10k, others are running a 10# pulley on a stock motor without a problem. I'ts a tossup, and besides, who cares if it blows up after 75k, at that point you got your $ worth and you can get it rebuilt.

I've had both the Paxton and the Roe on mine, the kick in the pants is much more noticeable with the Roe, no comparison. Actual racing performance... who knows, I think the Paxton wins. If you're serious about racing, do the Paxton. if you don't care that much about great traction and just want to really boost the fun factor and bottom torque, buy the Roe.

Best of luck.

 

[amtrucker22]

I've had both the Paxton and the Roe on mine, the kick in the pants is much more noticeable with the Roe, no comparison. Actual racing performance... who knows, I think the Paxton wins. If you're serious about racing, do the Paxton. if you don't care that much about great traction and just want to really boost the fun factor and bottom torque, buy the Roe.

Best of luck.

Good job and answering the original question.

He has 75k on the motor, so what. Are you gonna to granny it for the remainder of its life or are you gonna drive it hard til it blows?
I'm with the second choice. A few here have blown their NA engines up with under 10k, others are running a 10# pulley on a stock motor without a problem. I'ts a tossup, and besides, who cares if it blows up after 75k, at that point you got your $ worth and you can get it rebuilt.

I agree that it is a toss up on these engines. There are many trucks that have survived F/I without problems.

I can not afford the chance of blowing my engine so I am leaving it pretty close to stock and have an extended warranty.

Good luck with your decision and congrats on your promotion!