Oil Cavitation IS an Issue

[jrgnd]

Wait a minute are you guys telling me that I am virtually guaranteed to blow my engine if I am boosted or not. What is the highest mileage from our members without a problem...boost and n/a

30,383 miles....Blower and 100 lean shot of nitrous(That is corrected now) on since the 10,000 miles...

I have only used Amsoil and Lucas Synthetic stabilizer on every oil change AND use the Amsoil engine cleaner every other oil change. I know this two steps are frown upon but my engine is still running. My logic behind this two steps is that if you want to avoid detonation, your tune has to be on the richer side. The richer your mix, the more carbon buildup, the more carbon buildup, the dirtier the oil, the dirtier the oil, the less effective it is. Hence the need for the stabilizer and the every other oil change scrub.

I also don't drag race it with oil temp above 150 at launch. By the time it gets thru the quarter it's above 180. This is all to avoid detonation.

My transmission and rear also use Amsoil. Besides my dumb attempt to spray a 150 shot on top of the blower(It made 783 TQ at 3100 RPMs before killing the pull), my tranny took everything pretty well. $2500.00 dollars later my tranny is back like new.

I change my tranny fluid every 5000 miles. My rear end every 10000 miles or earlier.

Please understand I am not Jack(FSTJACK), John(SILVERBACK) or very mechanically inclined, but I like to read and have vivid imagination and usually those two things get me thru most of my issues.

Also, if you are a believer you can attribute my truck's long life to all the Blessings and Prayers that my grandma says when I walk out that door and hop on the truck. I sure do....

 

[Demon 8]

Sorry to hear you are selling that beast

 

[HaroldD]

If it was oil cavitation why just #3 ? All the bearings should be scored if cavitation is present.

Exactly :congrats:

 

[nycstev]

30,383 miles....Blower and 100 lean shot of nitrous(That is corrected now) on since the 10,000 miles...

I have only used Amsoil and Lucas Synthetic stabilizer on every oil change AND use the Amsoil engine cleaner every other oil change. I know this two steps are frown upon but my engine is still running. My logic behind this two steps is that if you want to avoid detonation, your tune has to be on the richer side. The richer your mix, the more carbon buildup, the more carbon buildup, the dirtier the oil, the dirtier the oil, the less effective it is. Hence the need for the stabilizer and the every other oil change scrub.

I also don't drag race it with oil temp above 150 at launch. By the time it gets thru the quarter it's above 180. This is all to avoid detonation.

My transmission and rear also use Amsoil. Besides my dumb attempt to spray a 150 shot on top of the blower(It made 783 TQ at 3100 RPMs before killing the pull), my tranny took everything pretty well. $2500.00 dollars later my tranny is back like new.

I change my tranny fluid every 5000 miles. My rear end every 10000 miles or earlier.

Please understand I am not Jack(FSTJACK), John(SILVERBACK) or very mechanically inclined, but I like to read and have vivid imagination and usually those two things get me thru most of my issues.

Also, if you are a believer you can attribute my truck's long life to all the Blessings and Prayers that my grandma says when I walk out that door and hop on the truck. I sure do....

You have stockinternals?

 

[kyle's srt10]

It's crazy how some of these motors with stock internals hold up to that kinda power:dontknow: I guess I just got a weak one 600rwtq broke mine

 

[RedSrt007]

30,383 miles....Blower and 100 lean shot of nitrous(That is corrected now) on since the 10,000 miles...

I have only used Amsoil and Lucas Synthetic stabilizer on every oil change AND use the Amsoil engine cleaner every other oil change. I know this two steps are frown upon but my engine is still running. My logic behind this two steps is that if you want to avoid detonation, your tune has to be on the richer side. The richer your mix, the more carbon buildup, the more carbon buildup, the dirtier the oil, the dirtier the oil, the less effective it is. Hence the need for the stabilizer and the every other oil change scrub.

I also don't drag race it with oil temp above 150 at launch. By the time it gets thru the quarter it's above 180. This is all to avoid detonation.

My transmission and rear also use Amsoil. Besides my dumb attempt to spray a 150 shot on top of the blower(It made 783 TQ at 3100 RPMs before killing the pull), my tranny took everything pretty well. $2500.00 dollars later my tranny is back like new.

I change my tranny fluid every 5000 miles. My rear end every 10000 miles or earlier.

Please understand I am not Jack(FSTJACK), John(SILVERBACK) or very mechanically inclined, but I like to read and have vivid imagination and usually those two things get me thru most of my issues.

Also, if you are a believer you can attribute my truck's long life to all the Blessings and Prayers that my grandma says when I walk out that door and hop on the truck. I sure do....

Tuning it conservatively in certain RPM areas helps too .....but even then, there is always a possibility. Jrgnd has had the tune in there for about a year now.

 

[jrgnd]

Tuning it conservatively in certain RPM areas helps too .....but even then, there is always a possibility. Jrgnd has had the tune in there for about a year now.

Yep...Avoid detonation at all cost...

 

[jrgnd]

You have stockinternals?

Yep....Beside a modified cam that I didn't know about...

 

[FSTJACK]

Just to clear up a couple of issues that are getting twisted around here.

Haulin's motor went away beacuse of detonation.

There was no sign of cavitation in his engine failure.

The bearings and crankshaft looked very good

There is a inherant cavitation problem that has taken out many sets of rod bearings in the Gen 3 Viper motor.

The pistons in a Gen3 motor will not tolerate any kind of detonation. The lands are very thin and will not stand up to detonation.

Dodge built the motor as a compromise between costs, fuel mileage, (the less weight and drag *also using a very narrow piston ring set* on the pistons gives better fuel mileage). These motors have very few failures stock. Start boosting up the power levels and the longevity of the motor goes down in proportion to the power increase.

Mike Brady in the Tank kept pushing the envelope on a stock motor and I personally was amazed at what it was capable of. This was due to DC Performance's Chris Jessen's tuning ability. Chris can extract quite a good amount of horsepower safely. The Tank was also using the very best in parts for power adders, that were also expertly installed at DC Performance.

This however was not cheap to do. There is no "cheap-inexpensive" way to build a Gen3 motor that is correct. The Tank engine was built at Exotic Engine Development by Kevin Singleton. Kevin knows more the anybody on the planet about engines.
There are several engine builders that can do a very good job at building a Viper engine, but none of them are "cheap-inexpensive".
Good parts command a princley sum and great machine work is also not "cheap-inexpensive". (The thick wall sleves ran 4500.00 for each of my motors by themselves). Why so much, this is beacuse they have to be custom made and it takes almost a full week to machine, install, normalize and rough bore.
Why do this? It give the cylinder wall great stability and the bore stays round under high cylinder pressures. It also allows for a .135 overbore, the increased displacement helps but it really helps unshroud the combustion chamber around the valves, hence much better breathing. This makes for more power and longer life under high cylinder pressures.

This is just one area that can be done, and is not necessary for a moderate "Hot-Rod" build.

If you want to make big power and keep it alive you cannot ever go too big on what you are doing.

With all the best parts, machine work and tuning it can still go boom on the first pass. This is beacuse you are asking a factory design to triple (Or in some cases quadruple) it's as produced horsepower.

Remember it's a HOT-ROD and if I want to play I better be willing to pay and pay and pay...........................................

 

[moparracing]

Just to clear up a couple of issues that are getting twisted around here.

Haulin's motor went away beacuse of detonation.

There was no sign of cavitation in his engine failure.

The bearings and crankshaft looked very good

There is a inherant cavitation problem that has taken out many sets of rod bearings in the Gen 3 Viper motor.

The pistons in a Gen3 motor will not tolerate any kind of detonation. The lands are very thin and will not stand up to detonation.

Dodge built the motor as a compromise between costs, fuel mileage, (the less weight and drag *also using a very narrow piston ring set* on the pistons gives better fuel mileage). These motors have very few failures stock. Start boosting up the power levels and the longevity of the motor goes down in proportion to the power increase.

Mike Brady in the Tank kept pushing the envelope on a stock motor and I personally was amazed at what it was capable of. This was due to DC Performance's Chris Jessen's tuning ability. Chris can extract quite a good amount of horsepower safely. The Tank was also using the very best in parts for power adders, that were also expertly installed at DC Performance.

This however was not cheap to do. There is no "cheap-inexpensive" way to build a Gen3 motor that is correct. The Tank engine was built at Exotic Engine Development by Kevin Singleton. Kevin knows more the anybody on the planet about engines.
There are several engine builders that can do a very good job at building a Viper engine, but none of them are "cheap-inexpensive".
Good parts command a princley sum and great machine work is also not "cheap-inexpensive". (The thick wall sleves ran 4500.00 for each of my motors by themselves). Why so much, this is beacuse they have to be custom made and it takes almost a full week to machine, install, normalize and rough bore.
Why do this? It give the cylinder wall great stability and the bore stays round under high cylinder pressures. It also allows for a .135 overbore, the increased displacement helps but it really helps unshroud the combustion chamber around the valves, hence much better breathing. This makes for more power and longer life under high cylinder pressures.

This is just one area that can be done, and is not necessary for a moderate "Hot-Rod" build.

If you want to make big power and keep it alive you cannot ever go too big on what you are doing.

With all the best parts, machine work and tuning it can still go boom on the first pass. This is beacuse you are asking a factory design to triple (Or in some cases quadruple) it's as produced horsepower.

Remember it's a HOT-ROD and if I want to play I better be willing to pay and pay and pay...........................................

thank you for the clearer explanation.....
since this motor was an '04 w/o knock sensors, would it have done better in regards to detonation if it were an '05 ?

 

[Prof]

I will have my old stock pistons this week...and will post some pictures...I think even with the knock sensor in the '05 and '06 engines will only detect detonation...I have a strong suspicion that most all of our engines with stock pistons have cracks...as Haulinasp has mentioned that he found...under normal operating pressures these small cracks may not cause immediate failure...but under heavy use and/or forced induction the cracks will lead to failure. My pistons do not have any evidence of detonation, and neither did my plugs.

While my engine did not fail and was running fine and strong, when it was pulled down for the addition of forged parts, every piston (every!) had cracks in the top ring land. The only indication was blow-by...way too much pressure in the valve covers...

In my amateur and non-technical analysis...even without detonation, (my Sean Roe tune was very conservative) the cracks occur and can eventually cause progressively more serious issues. Most stock engines do not get the stress of forced induction. They will live longer with the piston cracks. But every time you get on a stock piston engine it is stressing the most vulnerable internal engine part...our shitty pistons.

 

[HaulinAsp]

I really need to take some close up hi res pics of the other pistons I pulled from the broken up block. There was some scoring on other bearings after closer examination.

 

[nycstev]

I will have my old stock pistons this week...and will post some pictures...I think even with the knock sensor in the '05 and '06 engines will only detect detonation...I have a strong suspicion that most all of our engines with stock pistons have cracks...as Haulinasp has mentioned that he found...under normal operating pressures these small cracks may not cause immediate failure...but under heavy use and/or forced induction the cracks will lead to failure. My pistons do not have any evidence of detonation, and neither did my plugs.

While my engine did not fail and was running fine and strong, when it was pulled down for the addition of forged parts, every piston (every!) had cracks in the top ring land. The only indication was blow-by...way too much pressure in the valve covers...

In my amateur and non-technical analysis...even without detonation, (my Sean Roe tune was very conservative) the cracks occur and can eventually cause progressively more serious issues. Most stock engines do not get the stress of forced induction. They will live longer with the piston cracks. But every time you get on a stock piston engine it is stressing the most vulnerable internal engine part...our shitty pistons.

What was the mileage on your engine?

 

[Prof]

What was the mileage on your engine?

32K about 14k FI

 

[moparracing]

I will have my old stock pistons this week...and will post some pictures...I think even with the knock sensor in the '05 and '06 engines will only detect detonation...I have a strong suspicion that most all of our engines with stock pistons have cracks...as Haulinasp has mentioned that he found...under normal operating pressures these small cracks may not cause immediate failure...but under heavy use and/or forced induction the cracks will lead to failure. My pistons do not have any evidence of detonation, and neither did my plugs.

While my engine did not fail and was running fine and strong, when it was pulled down for the addition of forged parts, every piston (every!) had cracks in the top ring land. The only indication was blow-by...way too much pressure in the valve covers...

In my amateur and non-technical analysis...even without detonation, (my Sean Roe tune was very conservative) the cracks occur and can eventually cause progressively more serious issues. Most stock engines do not get the stress of forced induction. They will live longer with the piston cracks. But every time you get on a stock piston engine it is stressing the most vulnerable internal engine part...our shitty pistons.

your's is an '04 ??

 

[Prof]

your's is an '04 ??

Affirmative.

 

[eddie102870]

interesting read prof, thanks for the info. makes me want to start saving up for internals now.

 

[Scrambler1]

My engine was also tuned a little on the conservative side. I NEVER heard any detonation. My engine didn't grenade but I noticed it was down on power, a dyno proved it, so we started pulling stuff apart. 3 pistons had chips broken off above the ring lands and supsequent damage to the top of the pistons from the metal bits flying around. All of the other pistons had cracks in them as well.

I had around 20k miles with the Paxton and about 25k total miles at the time we tore it down. The truck is an 05 QC. The truck had never been down the track but I do drive it pretty hard. The next time I go to my parents house I'll grab my old pistons etc and take some pictures.

Joe

 

[Prof]

My engine was also tuned a little on the conservative side. I NEVER heard any detonation. My engine didn't grenade but I noticed it was down on power, a dyno proved it, so we started pulling stuff apart. 3 pistons had chips broken off above the ring lands and supsequent damage to the top of the pistons from the metal bits flying around. All of the other pistons had cracks in them as well.

I had around 20k miles with the Paxton and about 25k total miles at the time we tore it down. The truck is an 05 QC. The truck had never been down the track but I do drive it pretty hard. The next time I go to my parents house I'll grab my old pistons etc and take some pictures.

Joe

So there you go.

There seems to be a growing load of evidence saying that the pistons are toast and saving for and getting forged internals is just part of the matrix. Sooner rather than later...because if you wait too long, BOOM!

 

[Scrambler1]

So there you go.

There seems to be a growing load of evidence saying that the pistons are toast and saving for and getting forged internals is just part of the matrix. Sooner rather than later...because if you wait too long, BOOM!

I had been thinking that the metal flying around in the engine could have caused the cracking, but it seems like most of us are suffering from the same symptoms. I'm almost temped to pull a head off of the Viper ( 03 stock) that has ~17k miles and see if those pistons show any damage.

Joe