SlvrSnake
Full Access Member
Prof said:
Prof,
I'm not sure what you just said but somehow it makes me feel better. You are a much wiser man than myself. LOL
Piston Issues Confirmed..I Think.
- Thread starter Prof
- Start date
Prof,
I'm not sure what you just said but somehow it makes me feel better. You are a much wiser man than myself. LOL
nycstev
Full Access Member
Hi Steve,
I have seen that thread and I do not know how they had it tuned? The tuning makes or breaks a motor!! We programed yours with a conservative tune to make your motor last and YES the GENIII motors ARE built VERY cheap, i.e. cast piston w/ring land to far up & powered metal rods! If we build your motor, we will use, CP forge coated pistons, Manley forge rods w/HD wrist pins, Comp Coupe cam, lower the compression for the SC, porting heads and then we can run 10-12 lbs of boost. You should end up with 650-700 AT the wheels! Cost around $14,000-$16,000?
Happy 4th!Chuck
I have seen that thread and I do not know how they had it tuned? The tuning makes or breaks a motor!! We programed yours with a conservative tune to make your motor last and YES the GENIII motors ARE built VERY cheap, i.e. cast piston w/ring land to far up & powered metal rods! If we build your motor, we will use, CP forge coated pistons, Manley forge rods w/HD wrist pins, Comp Coupe cam, lower the compression for the SC, porting heads and then we can run 10-12 lbs of boost. You should end up with 650-700 AT the wheels! Cost around $14,000-$16,000?
Happy 4th!Chuck
The price is just where mine fell.
Go for it Steve!
I am expecting around 700 rwhp with 5.6 lbs of boost. But I am the eternal optimist.
Mine will fire on Tuesday, but I am off to the Keys for fishing with my son...
Roy
Go for it Steve!
I am expecting around 700 rwhp with 5.6 lbs of boost. But I am the eternal optimist.
Mine will fire on Tuesday, but I am off to the Keys for fishing with my son...
Roy
Last edited:
nycstev
Full Access Member
Your already in the mid 600's ..yes?Prof said:
620...
cobraken
Full Access Member
There were two recent threads at the VCA forums discussing FI and the internals of both the gen 2 and gen 3 motors. While everyone agrees that forged internals are better it seems that the consensus is the stock internals are good for up to 650 HP. There are no threads showing up on search for the problems we're seeing here. What is the difference??
cobraken said:
Good point and I think my answer must be bordering on preaching by now...
The difference is lots of added weight compared to the cars, and trying to move that weight, especially from a relatively low vehicle speed (and especially during w.o.t.) and how these conditions contribute greatly to cause preignition and, if severe enough, detonation. Now throw in added pressure from a blower when under those grunt conditions and you are asking A LOT out of the engine; Controlling detonation under these conditions is very tough, to say the least; especially when using a twin screw that builds boost faster (earlier) than other designs.
A proper cam to scrub off some low r.p.m. cylinder pressure with maybe a complimentary c.r. as well, or a head with a fast-burn combustion chamber (or all of these things) could help immensely and would be some items to seriously consider during a build for a Viper truck with a fast acting blower.
Add another 1600 to 2000 pounds to some F.I. Viper cars (never mind the fact they don't push air like the trucks), and you would see the same failures we are seeing on the truck forums. Not just forced induction engines are at risk but they at more of a risk, all else being equal.
I think Dodge should have included forged pistons in the Viper trucks and while they help, only diesels are designed to survive sustained detonation, so controlling that is the real issue here.
Last edited:
gliv
New Member
I don't mean to sound like a smart a** here but, after reading all of this it really tells me nothing. Each truck is different based on modification and tuning. Two of the biggest factors involved when burning piston and destroying rings are Air/Fuel ratio and Timing. If you have a truck that is N/A with a programmer, Supercharged, or Turbo you should be monitoring Air Fuel and timing with the appropriate gauges even when you are daily driving part throttle WOT etc. If the truck does not have a safe Air Fuel ratio which should be 11:8 or below you stand the risk over time of burning pistons and destorying rings. Timing can also cause the same problem, to much timing by by pistons and rings. If you do not know how to monitor these very important factors, you need to learn.
I think you need to read a little closer and more carefully...this thread does not address piston rings. My rings were fine, most engines are not having problems with rings. My pistons were not burned. All of the discussion has been about piston land failure. Not the dome, but an integral part of the piston skirt.
Not sure how much you understand about the SRT 10 pcm, but one of the issues we are constantly struggling with is the pcm pulling timing as heat increases, and when air/fuel ratios begin to stray.
You don't sound like a smart ass. Your observations are certainly correct and monitoring of all available data is always a prudent practice. Tuning these engines is incredibly important, but we have experienced some issues with very conservative tunes, and are trying to do some analysis to find an approach that will yield a little more safety margin.
I had three different tunes via my VEC II piggy back system...minus 6 degrees of timing, one with three degrees of timing pulled and one with zero degrees, as many of us have.
Our hypothesis is that in forced induction engines, there seems to be a piston failure that is consistent. We are now finding that engines that are normally aspirated, are having some of the same issues. It is only through sharing of information, that some of these persistent issues appear.
Thanks for your input...more ideas just add broader perspective.
Not sure how much you understand about the SRT 10 pcm, but one of the issues we are constantly struggling with is the pcm pulling timing as heat increases, and when air/fuel ratios begin to stray.
You don't sound like a smart ass. Your observations are certainly correct and monitoring of all available data is always a prudent practice. Tuning these engines is incredibly important, but we have experienced some issues with very conservative tunes, and are trying to do some analysis to find an approach that will yield a little more safety margin.
I had three different tunes via my VEC II piggy back system...minus 6 degrees of timing, one with three degrees of timing pulled and one with zero degrees, as many of us have.
Our hypothesis is that in forced induction engines, there seems to be a piston failure that is consistent. We are now finding that engines that are normally aspirated, are having some of the same issues. It is only through sharing of information, that some of these persistent issues appear.
Thanks for your input...more ideas just add broader perspective.
GriMacE 06QuadSRT10
Full Access Member
Well said Roy -- I am as concerned as anyone about this issue - even with my minimum mods shit can happen -
Yea - my Mopar/Borla and K&N items are also sold warrantied by Mopar but...
- the SCT, well I trust Chris Jensen and it is a mild tune - he just sent me a version with the rev limited to 5800 at my request but ...
Someone said in the thread that he puckers up when he gets on it hoping it will stay in one piece -- Sadly, I know the feeling
Frankly I feel for all the guys that have had issues and blown engines -- it truly makes me wanna vomit - this sucks!
Yea - my Mopar/Borla and K&N items are also sold warrantied by Mopar but...
- the SCT, well I trust Chris Jensen and it is a mild tune - he just sent me a version with the rev limited to 5800 at my request but ...
Someone said in the thread that he puckers up when he gets on it hoping it will stay in one piece -- Sadly, I know the feeling
Frankly I feel for all the guys that have had issues and blown engines -- it truly makes me wanna vomit - this sucks!
Perspective is an important characteristic...
The current Chrysler corp "Life Time Warranty" does not include SRT vehicles.
That says a lot about pushing the capability of engines that are marketed as performance machines.
We love these trucks. We just have to understand that there are so few of them that we need to be very careful investigators so that the family will continue to enjoy their virtues while we manage their short-comings.
The current Chrysler corp "Life Time Warranty" does not include SRT vehicles.
That says a lot about pushing the capability of engines that are marketed as performance machines.
We love these trucks. We just have to understand that there are so few of them that we need to be very careful investigators so that the family will continue to enjoy their virtues while we manage their short-comings.
nycstev
Full Access Member
Silverback said:
The meth theory makes sense.My question is why isn't anyone running straight meth instead of this windshield washer fluid. I for one would like to try it. Who has it?
You are spot on, except for the "smart man" phrase...
The other variable is disposable income...being proactive is a lot easier when your wife is well employed...
The other variable is disposable income...being proactive is a lot easier when your wife is well employed...
nycstev
Full Access Member
That is interesting....silverback's comments about water...why are the performance people/companys sayng run a mix? What silver says about pure alcohol makes complete sense...I am running a 49/51 meth/water mix...
I disagree with the water/meth objection. But my scientist resource in in Philly tonight so I can't sound smart about it.
But she is an avid advocate of water/meth injection especially the water part. Her corporation sells a process into power plants world wide that is a water injection system that atomizes the water molecules with the fuel mixture and increases the efficacy of the burn, "properly sprayed (read very fine spray) water" when mixed with air and fuel is a technology that has been accepted, acknowledged and widely used in coal fired and fuel oil burning power plants.
I am sure that straight meth would cool much more. But how much is the right amount becomes the question. I jokingly mentioned liquid nitrogen as a cooling agent in another thread...but the question becomes 'at what point does the temperature reduction begin to inhibit the ignition process'...fires have a tough time at zero degrees Kelvin!
But she is an avid advocate of water/meth injection especially the water part. Her corporation sells a process into power plants world wide that is a water injection system that atomizes the water molecules with the fuel mixture and increases the efficacy of the burn, "properly sprayed (read very fine spray) water" when mixed with air and fuel is a technology that has been accepted, acknowledged and widely used in coal fired and fuel oil burning power plants.
I am sure that straight meth would cool much more. But how much is the right amount becomes the question. I jokingly mentioned liquid nitrogen as a cooling agent in another thread...but the question becomes 'at what point does the temperature reduction begin to inhibit the ignition process'...fires have a tough time at zero degrees Kelvin!
Silverback said:
My thought was that the water mix slowed down the flame...same as high octane...to prevent detonation while cooling...:dontknow: :dontknow:
This is a copy of a post that Bone posted.
Bone said:
I wasn't going to comment on this anylonger, but today I had to go to a vendor to witness a load test on a tool, and it failed. Got me to thinking, and I think I came up with a way to maybe convey this in terms that non-engineers will under stand.
If you go to your local Home Depot, or Lowes store to look at ladders, you will now find that they are rated for a maximum weight. Generally they start at 200 pounds and then 250, and then 300. You will also see that as the capacity increases, so does the size of the structural members of the ladder, as well as the cost.
I should add that they also include a Safety Factor into their designs. Let's say the safety factor is 10%. That means that the ladder rated at 200 pounds will not fail until it's loaded to 220 pounds. Of course, they don't tell you that, but it's there.
Now let's apply that same engineering practice to our engines. And for this exercise, I'm only going to apply it to the pistons. And I'm only going to use nice round numbers that I'm pulling out of my ass. Don't have the time to do any calculations.
So, we have a nice 10 to 1 compression ratio engine that sees 1000psi at ignition. Let's say that the engineering once again used a safety factor of 10%, so the piston is designed to hold up to 1100psi. Now this is the same as the ladder. If you increase the safety factor, you will increase the weight and cost. And in an engine, you really are trying to minimize the rotating mass.
So then along comes Hot Rod Roy, we will just refer to him as HRR from now on. HRR isn't satisfied with a fast truck. He wants a faster truck. Well HRR adds a blower, turbo, nitrous, and a Turbonator (or whatever that piece of shit is that they try to sell on late night tv) so he can now go faster. Well with all of HRR's go fast goodies, his cylinder pressures are now in the 1500psi range. Well since the pistons were only designed for 1100psi, there will be a failure. And that is why all the pistons failed. They allowables for the piston design was exceeded in all cylinders. In order for the pistons to have not failed, the engineer would have had to designed for a safety factor of 50%. This would have added considerable cost to the sticker price.
And before someone jumps in and says that they would have gladly paid that price, I have to tell you, you are in the minority. As it was people did not want to pay the existing price of the truck. If they had, dealers would not have had to discount them to move them off of the lot, and they would still be manufacturing them.
Hope that makes sense to some of you.
If you go to your local Home Depot, or Lowes store to look at ladders, you will now find that they are rated for a maximum weight. Generally they start at 200 pounds and then 250, and then 300. You will also see that as the capacity increases, so does the size of the structural members of the ladder, as well as the cost.
I should add that they also include a Safety Factor into their designs. Let's say the safety factor is 10%. That means that the ladder rated at 200 pounds will not fail until it's loaded to 220 pounds. Of course, they don't tell you that, but it's there.
Now let's apply that same engineering practice to our engines. And for this exercise, I'm only going to apply it to the pistons. And I'm only going to use nice round numbers that I'm pulling out of my ass. Don't have the time to do any calculations.
So, we have a nice 10 to 1 compression ratio engine that sees 1000psi at ignition. Let's say that the engineering once again used a safety factor of 10%, so the piston is designed to hold up to 1100psi. Now this is the same as the ladder. If you increase the safety factor, you will increase the weight and cost. And in an engine, you really are trying to minimize the rotating mass.
So then along comes Hot Rod Roy,
we will just refer to him as HRR from now on. HRR isn't satisfied with a fast truck. He wants a faster truck. Well HRR adds a blower, turbo, nitrous, and a Turbonator (or whatever that piece of shit is that they try to sell on late night tv) so he can now go faster. Well with all of HRR's go fast goodies, his cylinder pressures are now in the 1500psi range. Well since the pistons were only designed for 1100psi, there will be a failure. And that is why all the pistons failed. They allowables for the piston design was exceeded in all cylinders. In order for the pistons to have not failed, the engineer would have had to designed for a safety factor of 50%. This would have added considerable cost to the sticker price.And before someone jumps in and says that they would have gladly paid that price, I have to tell you, you are in the minority. As it was people did not want to pay the existing price of the truck. If they had, dealers would not have had to discount them to move them off of the lot, and they would still be manufacturing them.
Hope that makes sense to some of you.
Silverback said:I wasn't going to comment on this anylonger, but today I had to go to a vendor to witness a load test on a tool, and it failed. Got me to thinking, and I think I came up with a way to maybe convey this in terms that non-engineers will under stand.
If you go to your local Home Depot, or Lowes store to look at ladders, you will now find that they are rated for a maximum weight. Generally they start at 200 pounds and then 250, and then 300. You will also see that as the capacity increases, so does the size of the structural members of the ladder, as well as the cost.
I should add that they also include a Safety Factor into their designs. Let's say the safety factor is 10%. That means that the ladder rated at 200 pounds will not fail until it's loaded to 220 pounds. Of course, they don't tell you that, but it's there.
Now let's apply that same engineering practice to our engines. And for this exercise, I'm only going to apply it to the pistons. And I'm only going to use nice round numbers that I'm pulling out of my ass. Don't have the time to do any calculations.
So, we have a nice 10 to 1 compression ratio engine that sees 1000psi at ignition. Let's say that the engineering once again used a safety factor of 10%, so the piston is designed to hold up to 1100psi. Now this is the same as the ladder. If you increase the safety factor, you will increase the weight and cost. And in an engine, you really are trying to minimize the rotating mass.
So then along comes Hot Rod Roy,
And before someone jumps in and says that they would have gladly paid that price, I have to tell you, you are in the minority. As it was people did not want to pay the existing price of the truck. If they had, dealers would not have had to discount them to move them off of the lot, and they would still be manufacturing them.
Hope that makes sense to some of you.
So is what your saying is ......
If I stand on any ladder.....it will fail
Actually, this is the exact same theory I was taught by one of the members of our local club. In a nutshell, SE pretty much said that most people when trying to go faster/increase power, they never take in to consideration the limits already in place.
He made a point in saying that the building of an engine requires that all aspects of the build work well together
Thank You John.....Stock it will stay........
VJ
Support Us
Become A Supporting Member Today!
