Piston Issues Confirmed..I Think.

[GotRidOfTheHemiForThis]

ok ive read most of this whole thread but wonder has anyone and i mean anyone approached Dodge (the actual company not a dealer) about this piston issue with an educated, professional attitude and questioned them for an answer or solution? I mean yes most of the blow ups are boosted motors but what happens in time with them. Normal time and wear and tear will eventually cause the same issues in higher miles if i am correct with my assumption. Additionally as to some thoughts on the term driving style and life of the motor. Who buys this truck to drive it like a old lady?? I drive mine like i stole it and always will no matter the power. We bought a high performance truck for performance otherwise if not that, some sort of stupid look what I have outlook. If i wanted to drive slow i would have bought a base model not a high end one. my 4 cents again thats twice today i must be thinking to much? maybe i need to start drinking now and shut up

 

[Prof]

Mike it is a dead issue.

These trucks are out of production. They are looking forward not back, as any good company would do...we will need to solve whatever problems arise...and we do have some good technical people to help us.

 

[Stingray]

I like your analogy Silverback. The pistons in most of todays vehicles are cast aluminum or hypereutectic. Those do not like high cylinder pressures from boost or NOS. They are not defective from Dodge, just weak for high performance applications. I had an 96 Impala SS that ran great until I installed an ATI Prochager and then the ring land on the #7 cylinder broke exactly the same way Roy's did. Knowing that stock cast pistons are not very good I will probably never boost a stock engine again without going to forged pistons.

I wasn't going to comment on this anylonger, but today I had to go to a vendor to witness a load test on a tool, and it failed. Got me to thinking, and I think I came up with a way to maybe convey this in terms that non-engineers will under stand.

If you go to your local Home Depot, or Lowes store to look at ladders, you will now find that they are rated for a maximum weight. Generally they start at 200 pounds and then 250, and then 300. You will also see that as the capacity increases, so does the size of the structural members of the ladder, as well as the cost.

I should add that they also include a Safety Factor into their designs. Let's say the safety factor is 10%. That means that the ladder rated at 200 pounds will not fail until it's loaded to 220 pounds. Of course, they don't tell you that, but it's there.

Now let's apply that same engineering practice to our engines. And for this exercise, I'm only going to apply it to the pistons. And I'm only going to use nice round numbers that I'm pulling out of my ass. Don't have the time to do any calculations.

So, we have a nice 10 to 1 compression ratio engine that sees 1000psi at ignition. Let's say that the engineering once again used a safety factor of 10%, so the piston is designed to hold up to 1100psi. Now this is the same as the ladder. If you increase the safety factor, you will increase the weight and cost. And in an engine, you really are trying to minimize the rotating mass.

So then along comes Hot Rod Roy, we will just refer to him as HRR from now on. HRR isn't satisfied with a fast truck. He wants a faster truck. Well HRR adds a blower, turbo, nitrous, and a Turbonator (or whatever that piece of shit is that they try to sell on late night tv) so he can now go faster. Well with all of HRR's go fast goodies, his cylinder pressures are now in the 1500psi range. Well since the pistons were only designed for 1100psi, there will be a failure. And that is why all the pistons failed. They allowables for the piston design was exceeded in all cylinders. In order for the pistons to have not failed, the engineer would have had to designed for a safety factor of 50%. This would have added considerable cost to the sticker price.

And before someone jumps in and says that they would have gladly paid that price, I have to tell you, you are in the minority. As it was people did not want to pay the existing price of the truck. If they had, dealers would not have had to discount them to move them off of the lot, and they would still be manufacturing them.

Hope that makes sense to some of you.

 

[mauiSRT/10]

Just read all 13 pages..............somebody else said it first..............."I'm afraid to start my truck"!!!!

Since the viper cars are not having the same wholesale piston failure..............weight seems to be a logical reason/contributor to ours failing.

patrick

 

[MYTRAM]

I wasn't going to comment on this anylonger, but today I had to go to a vendor to witness a load test on a tool, and it failed. Got me to thinking, and I think I came up with a way to maybe convey this in terms that non-engineers will under stand.

If you go to your local Home Depot, or Lowes store to look at ladders, you will now find that they are rated for a maximum weight. Generally they start at 200 pounds and then 250, and then 300. You will also see that as the capacity increases, so does the size of the structural members of the ladder, as well as the cost.

I should add that they also include a Safety Factor into their designs. Let's say the safety factor is 10%. That means that the ladder rated at 200 pounds will not fail until it's loaded to 220 pounds. Of course, they don't tell you that, but it's there.

Now let's apply that same engineering practice to our engines. And for this exercise, I'm only going to apply it to the pistons. And I'm only going to use nice round numbers that I'm pulling out of my ass. Don't have the time to do any calculations.

So, we have a nice 10 to 1 compression ratio engine that sees 1000psi at ignition. Let's say that the engineering once again used a safety factor of 10%, so the piston is designed to hold up to 1100psi. Now this is the same as the ladder. If you increase the safety factor, you will increase the weight and cost. And in an engine, you really are trying to minimize the rotating mass.

So then along comes Hot Rod Roy, we will just refer to him as HRR from now on. HRR isn't satisfied with a fast truck. He wants a faster truck. Well HRR adds a blower, turbo, nitrous, and a Turbonator (or whatever that piece of shit is that they try to sell on late night tv) so he can now go faster. Well with all of HRR's go fast goodies, his cylinder pressures are now in the 1500psi range. Well since the pistons were only designed for 1100psi, there will be a failure. And that is why all the pistons failed. They allowables for the piston design was exceeded in all cylinders. In order for the pistons to have not failed, the engineer would have had to designed for a safety factor of 50%. This would have added considerable cost to the sticker price.

And before someone jumps in and says that they would have gladly paid that price, I have to tell you, you are in the minority. As it was people did not want to pay the existing price of the truck. If they had, dealers would not have had to discount them to move them off of the lot, and they would still be manufacturing them.

Hope that makes sense to some of you.

Makes plenty of sense here!

 

[Prof]

In putting the engine back together, and getting it on the dyno, we noticed a problem...

There was a broken solder point under the dash in the water/meth wiring...probably caused intermittent injection of water/meth under heavy acceleration. With out water/meth the temperature of the intake air is too high in a boosted environment. The obvious impact would be detonation at high rpm and excessive pressure on the pistons...

This supports Siverback's theory...while he did not know about the probable failure of the water/meth system that just makes his points even more valid.

This could have been going on for months or just happened in one run...no way to tell. I have a test button, but got to rely on the system, and the led on the pillar...shit happens, when you make your hot rod hotter!

 

[TNVIPER]

That is why I am tuned moderately...the meth is just extra protection and not dependent...

 

[Black1]

In putting the engine back together, and getting it on the dyno, we noticed a problem...

There was a broken solder point under the dash in the water/meth wiring...probably caused intermittent injection of water/meth under heavy acceleration. With out water/meth the temperature of the intake air is too high in a boosted environment. The obvious impact would be detonation at high rpm and excessive pressure on the pistons...

This supports Siverback's theory...while he did not know about the probable failure of the water/meth system that just makes his points even more valid.

This could have been going on for months or just happened in one run...no way to tell. I have a test button, but got to rely on the system, and the led on the pillar...shit happens, when you make your hot rod hotter!

Couldn't put in some kind of Intake Air Temp sensor to monitor temps.... maybe have a gauge in the a-pillar? :dontknow:

 

[SrtBrad]

Prof thanks for posting this detailed thread with pictures. What was your compression at before you decided to go forged. How much oil was getting into the catch can. What other clues can you tell everyone to look out for so they know when to stop before it's too late and do a forged rebuild.

I will be taking out my 05 QC engine that was NA but spun a rod in the next 2-3 weeks. When I take the engine apart I will also take detailed pics like yours and see what my pistons look like after 41K hard miles. This should be an interesting comparison.

The engine will be coming out next week and a complete teardown will happen. I'll post up detailed pics of the rebuild.

 

[supercar1of1]

Couldn't put in some kind of Intake Air Temp sensor to monitor temps.... maybe have a gauge in the a-pillar? :dontknow:

Have one in my Town car, they are pricey but very accurate(AUTOMETER)





.

 

[nycstev]

The engine will be coming out next week and a complete teardown will happen. I'll post up detailed pics of the rebuild.

I am on the edge of my seat waiting for pics....:eating: :eating:

 

[DevilDawg3097]

All very good answers and they are if you push the limits on anything your going to have a faliure. I see it all day long on the diesel side of things people thing just because they have a turbo on there already the can put a bigger one and etc. But foe shits and giggles I will take my camera to the dealer when I drop my headers of I have 20k miles on my truck and only ram air and a tune. As far as I know nothing else has been done, so since there replacing the crank,we'll try and back up the Profs theory ? why advertise it as HIGH PO and the crank pulley falls off, engineering flaw or workmanship either way I have been a mopar head all my life so this is just like pissin in my cheerios. Think they'll shit on the challenger owners. I am not knocking anyone but the only guys taking care of us, IS the aftermaket people (YOU GUYS) and they Know more than any tech around here, I just believe they need to back us (CHRYSLER) like they did with the hemis, I had nowhere as much trouble with a dodge than this truck, But the Fu^%$^ up thing is I LOVE THIS TRUCK so lets get the bugs out together. IMO

 

[supercar1of1]

All very good answers and they are if you push the limits on anything your going to have a faliure. I see it all day long on the diesel side of things people thing just because they have a turbo on there already the can put a bigger one and etc. But foe shits and giggles I will take my camera to the dealer when I drop my headers of I have 20k miles on my truck and only ram air and a tune. As far as I know nothing else has been done, so since there replacing the crank,we'll try and back up the Profs theory ? why advertise it as HIGH PO and the crank pulley falls off, engineering flaw or workmanship either way I have been a mopar head all my life so this is just like pissin in my cheerios. Think they'll shit on the challenger owners. I am not knocking anyone but the only guys taking care of us, IS the aftermaket people (YOU GUYS) and they Know more than any tech around here, I just believe they need to back us (CHRYSLER) like they did with the hemis, I had nowhere as much trouble with a dodge than this truck, But the Fu^%$^ up thing is I LOVE THIS TRUCK so lets get the bugs out together. IMO

WELL said!


:rock: :congrats:





.

 

[kyle's srt10]

Okay so here is some pictures of my piston's from my old engine. There doesn't seem to be any damage from what I can tell.:dontknow: They all look up close just like the one pictured. (except the #3 )

Here's some of the block. I think it was toasted

 

[perk_1405]

Okay so here is some pictures of my piston's from my old engine. There doesn't seem to be any damage from what I can tell.:dontknow: They all look up close just like the one pictured. (except the

are you sure those arnt my pics? j/k my pistons had no ring land issues either:dontknow:

 

[Prof]

I need to see close up pics of the piston ring land on piston #3...please.

 

[kyle's srt10]

I need to see close up pics of the piston ring land on piston #3...please.

What's left of it you mean?:dontknow: Not sure what kind of read you could get off the hundred pieces it's in:dontknow:

 

[shade]

Piston was starved of fuel and went boom?

 

[FerrariTruck]

In putting the engine back together, and getting it on the dyno, we noticed a problem...

There was a broken solder point under the dash in the water/meth wiring...probably caused intermittent injection of water/meth under heavy acceleration. With out water/meth the temperature of the intake air is too high in a boosted environment. The obvious impact would be detonation at high rpm and excessive pressure on the pistons...

This supports Siverback's theory...while he did not know about the probable failure of the water/meth system that just makes his points even more valid.

This could have been going on for months or just happened in one run...no way to tell. I have a test button, but got to rely on the system, and the led on the pillar...shit happens, when you make your hot rod hotter!

heres the answer I was looking for...Thanks prof for taking the time to write this thread. It is filled with tons of info that is priceless. Just wished I would have read long ago instead of looking at all the boobie pics and funny vid threads. At this point I think once I have it all together I will get it towed to DC performance and let Chris work his magic.
Somethings I will add to the list to have installed by this summer will be the
Forged Pistons that stinker has for sale.
in the meanwhile, I will also install the perf cam and try to scoop up some headers in an effort to keep boost from peaking...
omg what have I done....



So in short I have learned this:

#1) Pay the money for not just a great tuner, But the worlds best with the best success rate
#2) Avoid swapping to the 7lb or even 10lb pulley on stock bottom
#3) Make sure meth is working properly and correctly..One that works when needed(so it keeps things cool) and one that stays shut and not flood the engine to hydralock failure
#4) take it easy in hot weather (85 deg plus)
#5) Avoid high load conditions like launching to low and causing a "bog"
#6) get at least one aem wide band o2 guage
#7) get intake temp charge guage
#8)dont hot lap it
#9) dual electric fans with the lower temp t-stat
#10) running on borrowed time so expect it fail sooner or later

Anything i missed please add

 

[Prof]

Thanks for the compliment!

There are lots of things to learn everywhere. A lot of experts gave their best thinking to this thread...and more new evidence has surfaced since it faded away.

A few:

Only rely on the few great tuners that we know we have. We are discovering a few more but they all seem to have collaborated with Sean Roe.
A good tune will some times take all day and even longer.
After the dyno tuning, some tuners can improve the tune by riding shotgun and "listening and feeling."
Wide Band Gauges are fine but only for indications not tuning.
If you can buy the best do so, parts and people.
Don't finance these builds, pay cash (yes, save it until you have what you need).
Once you pay cash, start saving for the rebuild...immediately.
You will want to pay cash when it goes boom, and it will, because that is what we do. It's called renewal...each time we rebuild it gets better as long and you pay cash, and buy the best people, and parts.

Enjoy it friends, they will not last forever.