Project Cerberus

Discussion in 'Viper Truck Builds - Project Logs/Recent Mods' started by Modern Barbarian, Nov 16, 2021.

  1. Modern Barbarian

    Modern Barbarian Active Member Supporting Member

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    After a little more research, I have found the kit to install the 8HP75 8 speed automatic in our trucks. It requires some wiring, figuring out a flexplate with proper backspacing, as well as the 8HP shifter. The parts (minus the transmission and flexplate) can be had from sound german automotive for 1500 bucks. The Rep also emailed me the installation instructions, which I will copy below for anyone who is interested. This is definitely going on my list of things to do for this truck. I think the 8 speed is what this truck needs to really rock.


    Below is the copy of correspondence from Sound German Automotive
    8hp kit installation instructions.

    The 8hp kit is as close to plug n play as possible. The required inputs for the transmission to work with this kit are RPM, TPS, Torque, Brake switch or Brake lamp input. All other wiring is optional and for your use as needed. We provide Neutral safety output and Reverse light output to ground only. Speedometer output is a programmable and should work with any modern electronic speedometer or a speedometer driver such as Speedhut Speedbox. The harness is made to receive inputs via CAN or discrete wiring. Both are not needed. One or the other. This allows easy installation and no calibration requirements for supported CAN based ECUs. Also wiring with aftermarket ECUs and even a Carb engine or diesel with a TPS sensor and RPM sensor. The discrete inputs are programmable for virtually any sensor.

    Note: After calibration the Save Cal Command button at the top must be pressed and then the control module must be powered down and then disconnected from Battery power for 5-10 seconds for the changes to take effect.


    Some adjustments of setup are available in the PCS control module. All Calibration of the transmission is done via OBD to the 8hp control unit as it would be done in the factory vehicle. Aftermarket tuning devices will be required. The PCS software and cable will not make adjustments to the 8hp TCM calibration.

    Mopar Crate or other factory Mopar ECUs with or without Star connector:

    Power and Ground:

    There are two power inputs. A switched 12vlts to be wired to power when the key is on and a constant 12vlt battery input. Ground to chassis or battery ground. These all must be secure and reliable. Power must not drop during cranking and check that ground differential during cranking or other high loads is not high. Either of these scenarios can cause the Control module to lose power or drop to a critical level momentarily and turn off. This can cause starting issues when using the N/S output and others.

    Plug C4 With Star connector:

    Connect from PCS harness to Mopar Star connector any position.

    No Star Connector:

    If installing into a production car without Star connector. Find CAN-C in a convenient location to splice into. Typically, white/green is CAN high and White/blue is CAN low. Nag1 cars it is easy to do this at the original Nag1 TCU that you will be removing. This is also a good location to grab switched ignition input for the yellow wire. Diagnostic CAN-C at your OBD will not work. Also if you are swapping a Nag1 out or RAM RFE the TRS park from the shifter needs to be grounded to remove your key and sometimes shut your engine off. Also BTSI input can be used for Brake input if you have a potentiometer brake travel sensor instead of a switch.

    Plug C1

    Plug into rear passenger side of the transmission.

    Plug C5

    Plug into the 8hp shifter.

    Unterminated wires:

    Brake input Gry/Blk to brake switch. It is calibrated to 12vlt input for the switch by default but can be calibrated to a ground contact as well.

    Neutral Safety output from PCS harness Pink/Blk to Mopar harness N – Color: DG/OG – Gauge: 18 – Clutch Interlock:

    Reverse lights output to ground side control of a relay for activating reverse lights.

    Speedometer output:

    This is a signal output to run and electronic speedometer. The Orange/wht wire will go to signal input of the speedometer. If the speedometer instructions show a 3 wire sensor diagram. 5vlt Ref and Signal ground are not required. These two wires are for operating an independent sensor. Power and ground to the Speedometer is required and this signal wire.


    PCS software for monitoring data:

    Please download the PCS tuning software at this address. https://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com//functions/download.php?dir=Software&file=TCM2800_Tuning-Install.exe

    Install the software and Read the calibration from the control unit using the Read CAL tab at the top; with the Eyeball. Save this file on your computer. Go to Software Setup select Tuning Mode / Advanced. Your screen should look like this after this is done.



    After this open the Monitor Screen using the Monitor tab which looks like a speedometer at the top it will open the lightweight monitor by default. Change this to TCM 2600/2800 Datastream in the Selected Monitor pull down in the window and you should be able to see RPM, TPS, Turbine Speed, Lever position, Current Gear and vehicle speed. (See below) As well as other input output functions. With the engine running you should see RPM and Turbine speed and if your foot is on the brake digital input 1 and Cancel TCC should be on. You should be able to remove the shifter from Park if these conditions are met. If you override your shifter then it will not go into gear. The transmission will not come out of park

    if the engine is not running unless you use the manual override lever on the driver’s side of the transmission.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2021
  2. Modern Barbarian

    Modern Barbarian Active Member Supporting Member

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    Aftermarket ECUs with TPS and RPM:

    If using and aftermarket ECU or any unsupported CAN ECU TPS and RPM signals can be shared between control units. These inputs are not needed and should not be hooked up if you are using CAN.

    TPS signal Yel/Blk will go to sensor input at the ECU. The 5vlt Ref. Red/wht and sensor ground BLK/wht should not be used. The ECU is already providing these to operate the sensor.

    RPM input Orn/Blk will go to the tachometer output on an aftermarket ECU. This can also be shared with the Tachometer. Again, sensor ground is not needed. This will not run a tachometer. It is an input to the kit for getting RPM.

    Both of these signals need to be calibrated in the software under the Hardware Setup Folder.

    TPS is under Analog inputs (x) TPS Calibration. Read the voltage using the Monitor in the box labeled Voltages Set the 0% voltage value and then press the pedal to full throttle and set the 100% throttle value. Hit enter after entering these values.

    RPM is in the folder labeled SPEEDS. Set speed input pulses per RPM for Speed 1.

    Applications with no other Computers:

    Calibrate sensor inputs as per the instructions above after they are wired correctly.

    TPS

    Wire a TPS sensor to 5vlt ref. Signal ground and TPS input wires on unterminated harness as instructed on the TPS sensor instructions.

    Note: After calibration the Save Cal Command button at the top must be pressed and then the control module must be powered down and then disconnected from Battery power for 5-10 seconds for the changes to take effect.


    RPM

    Magnetic 2 wire sensors can be wired directly to RPM input and Sensor ground.

    Hall Effect 3 wire sensors should be wired to 5vlt Ref. Sensor ground and RPM input per Sensor instructions. Some sensors may also require 12vlt input or a pull up resistor to read the sensor.

    Torque Map:

    The torque map is used in these applications. It is TPS vs RPM and can be found in the Calibration/Tuning folder Main Torque Map. The break points can be changed to represent your engines operating range. This map must be representative of the actual torque, both positive and negative, being generated by the engine at the flywheel. If it is not the transmission may fail prematurely or simply not work at all. Reporting higher than actual torque is more desirable than reporting to little. See example map below.

    [​IMG]

    Speedometer output:

    Speedometer output setup pulses per mile is done under Hardware Setup / Speeds / (x) Speedo Output Settings Set the pulses per mile to match your speedometer to the speedometer in the PCS Software monitor.

    Gear ratio and Tire size:

    Set gear ratio and tire size under Setup Info / (x) Gear Ratios and Tire Size.

    The transmission ratios are not necessary. Only final drive ratio and driven tire diameter.

    If you are using the Mopar instrument cluster via CAN; the scaling is incorrect for this and you must adjust tire size to correct for this. I recommend setting it correctly, so the PCS software reads correctly on the Monitor screen. Get the vehicle to 60mph steady state and then adjust the tire size so that the instrument cluster reads 60mph while maintaining a constant speed.


    Option connector and other CAN connectors:

    In an effort to provide optional input setups and future expansion the harness is made with additional connectors for CAN. The option connector is used for items such as Gear indicators and Paddle shifters.

    The additional 2 pin CAN connectors are not required for any particular installation and can just be stored in the harness if not used.

    Sport and Track Modes:

    Note: Modes are only supported if the Calibration in the 8hp TCM inside the transmission is set for these. This kit cannot activate modes that are not in the factory transmission calibration. Ie a truck calibration does not have Sport and Track modes.

    Sport mode and Track mode can be activated via the software and kept that way without wiring in or an additional wire can be added to the Main PCS 56 pin connector. Sport mode is set to digital input 2 (pin 3) and Track Mode is set to digital input 4 (pin 5). Nothing is required in the software if adding a wire to a switch. Simply add the wire to the correct pin and ground the wire and the mode will activate.

    To activate either via the software without wiring got to Hardware setup / Digital Inputs / Invert button logic. Invert either digital input 2 for Sport or digital input 4 for Track.

    Note: After calibration the Save Cal Command button at the top must be pressed and then the control module must be powered down and then disconnected from Battery power for 5-10 seconds for the changes to take effect.

    Fault Codes in your 8hp TCM:

    It is normal for your tcm to have faults for TRS park P1DCA and U140 and U121 for communications with the BCM and Traction control. These do not hinder performance. There are sometimes U codes for the cluster or Tcase control as well that will not cause any problems either.

    If you have any questions about your installation or problems with the product or software. Please contact me.

    Sound German Automotive

    Russell Drake

    [email protected]

    425-503-9233
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2021
  3. Modern Barbarian

    Modern Barbarian Active Member Supporting Member

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    Here is a list of possible donors. Found a company that can build these to the power levels we are looking for.

    upload_2021-12-8_13-23-52.png
     
  4. Modern Barbarian

    Modern Barbarian Active Member Supporting Member

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  5. ViperJeff

    ViperJeff Misanthrope Staff Member Administrator Supporting Member

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    Linked images to your C drive won't work, you will need to "Upload a file"
     
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  6. Modern Barbarian

    Modern Barbarian Active Member Supporting Member

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    I will have to go through and update with all the needed images, but this gets the bulk of the information across.
     
  7. Modern Barbarian

    Modern Barbarian Active Member Supporting Member

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    Did some more work for a couple hours this weekend and got 4 more pounds out of the truck. Was able to remove a pound from the Passenger side rear seat structure. Then a completely bolt off weight reduction is the center seat seat belt assembly. If you unbolt it and the top portion that the belt runs through it is worth three pounds. Nobody ever sits in the center of my back seat so that belt was completely useless to me. I know 4 pounds ain't much, but it will just keep adding up.
     
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  8. Modern Barbarian

    Modern Barbarian Active Member Supporting Member

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    I don't know if you guys geek out on numbers like I do, engineer and all, but I put together a spreadsheet to do some testing I thought you all might like to see. It allows me to figure speed, average horsepower, and average torque for each gear. so i can check what my average power and torque is with different shift points. I put both the 48re and the ZF 8HP70 trans in the sheet so I can see the differences between the two as well. This is all based on flywheel horsepower of a stock 8.3 right now as I do not have a dyno test on my own truck yet. The graph I used to do this work is on the sheet itself. By my calculations the ZF8HP70 is worth thirty average HP under the curve compare to the 48RE. That number would increase because the trans is more efficient, but this is just the average hp gained by the tighter gear ratios. It also raises the theoretical top speed from 185 to 192 MPH. The 8 speed is also 58 pounds lighter the the 48re.

    I have put a screen cap of my spreadsheet on here for everyone to see. Tell me if you see something else you would like it to do, and I will see if I can add it. Then I can make it available to the forum if people want it.

    trans comparison.PNG
     
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  9. Modern Barbarian

    Modern Barbarian Active Member Supporting Member

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    Cerberus just got a new throttle body on order. Got an amazon gift card from work as a reward and wouldn't you know, they sell the bbk throttle body on there. So it will be here Sunday. I'll do a full write up and test once I get it installed.
     
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  10. rottenronnie

    rottenronnie Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    What an enormous difference in gear ratios between the 48RE and the 8-speed (in the low ranges).

    The 8.3 is a TORQUE engine and can easily stride through taller gears of the 48RE but launching with much lower gears would make it considerably easier. HUGE torque multiplication in 1st, 2nd and 3rd with the 8 speed and 4.56s !! It would make an SRT-10 feel like it lost a couple of thousand pounds.

    I haven't done a thing to my suspension and have to use a few "tricks" to get an effective launch with Drag Radials. A dead-idle launch then pinning the throttle it on the 2nd Yellow flashes the Convertor and plants the suspension but also bogs the engine a bit as the truck leaves at a less than desirable rpm. The new 8 speed would cure that as a VERY low 1st and 2nd would get things underway without trying to turn the tires nearly as much as the 48RE.

    I race my truck at the track once in a Blue Moon but when I get the chance, the setup isn't optimum. It grabs revs a little too quick for the old 48RE to respond properly sometimes and it has been known to jump into Lockup-Overdrive at the wrong time.

    The 48RE is my least favourite unit between the head and taillights. It has its roots in the 1950s and that is where it belongs.

    The programming coming from/to the ECU borders on archaic and the hard-coding that causes it to jump into Lockup-Overdrive at 30 miles per hour is a p.i.t.a., particularly if the engine is cammed.

    It is a MARGAINAL unit in stock trim and the power increases from an Underdrive Pulley and Throttle Body puts it's life in jeopardy :0

    IF the 8-speed can be made to work and interface seamlessly with the rest of the players, it would be fantastic.

    I appreciate all the research you have done/are doing.

    Thanks;

    Ronnie
     
  11. Modern Barbarian

    Modern Barbarian Active Member Supporting Member

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    Speaking of traction issues, I put the bbk throttle body on this morning, and with it and the other stuff I have done, traction is no more. I cant even launch from a dead stop, let alone against the converter now. Mph is up in both the quarter and half mile, but 60 foot is garbage now, and its costing me a full half second not being g able to launch. Time to do something about that.
     
  12. rottenronnie

    rottenronnie Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    Yes the throttle bodies typically provide, let's say 10 horsepower, but the improvement in throttle response (due to a larger exposed area when you tip the throttle), is worth the price and time to change it out for the stocker.

    My truck is WAY past needing some kind of traction aids but it isn't a full-on racer with (4) Cats and a pump gas engine.
     
  13. Modern Barbarian

    Modern Barbarian Active Member Supporting Member

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    If we can make it hook, it will be awesome. The Henin trucks with 8 speeds are fast AF with them.
     
  14. Modern Barbarian

    Modern Barbarian Active Member Supporting Member

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    I am going to try some Caltracs and see if it helps.
     
  15. Bad Azp Performance

    Bad Azp Performance Member

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    900whp depending on local DA of course
     
  16. Modern Barbarian

    Modern Barbarian Active Member Supporting Member

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    Thats what your pushing? Quad cab? How does it run in the quarter mile?
     
  17. Bad Azp Performance

    Bad Azp Performance Member

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    No, what I'm saying is dependent on DA in your area it may take significantly more than 900whp
     
  18. rottenronnie

    rottenronnie Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    There is no question that Caltracs will help.
    They wont be the answer for 900 horsepower though, if that is your goal.
     
  19. Modern Barbarian

    Modern Barbarian Active Member Supporting Member

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    I'm thinking this may require tubs, big ass tires, and a four link. But that's gonna be a minute.
     
  20. rottenronnie

    rottenronnie Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    As well as some kind of Locker differential.