The Philosophy Thread - an Experimental Therapy:

[Django]

Just for the record, it seems that my old buddy Igor Gamow's daddy (George) could easily have taken the Big Bang theory from the Genesis account where God said "Light... be ..." Only difference is, he did it scientifically...starting with the known fact that the Universe is constantly expanding at the speed of light (186,000 miles per second).

Of course, I'm old..... But I wasn't actually there at the time.....

D

 

[OCBob]

Just for the record, it seems that my old buddy Igor Gamov's daddy (George) could easily have taken the Big Bang theory from the Genesis account where God said "Light... be ..." Only difference is, he did it scientifically...starting with the known fact that the Universe is constantly expanding at the speed of light (186,000 miles per second).

Of course, I'm old..... But I wasn't actually there at the time.....

D

Could very well be. Science and religion do not have to be at odds, though they typically are. Science is derived from the natural curiosity of man, and if you are a Believer, wouldn't it make sense that God Himself gave us that trait, and did so for a reason?

My problem with religion is it's inflexibility, even in the face of proof. Just ask Galileo about that hehe. I would be able to take it much more to heart, if they were able to say that we now know things that we didn't before. Now, that doesn't have to change the intent of religion, just a few minor "facts". It's real hard for me to believe any of it when they defend things that I know aren't true. Sort of like politics hehe.

And you might not have been there at the time Tim, but I don't think it was that long afterwards that you showed up LOL.

 

[FASTFOOD]

My theory where they are similar are as follows

In the Bible it states that a day to God is like 10,000 years.
Man has invented the carbon dating method thus it can be flawed.

In the Bible:
Day 1 = 10,000 yrs creation of Day and Night

Day 2 = 20,000 yrs 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Day 3 = 30,000 yrs And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Day 4 = 40,000 yrs Creation of Sun, Moon & Stars

Day 5 = 50,000 yrs Creation of all beasts(?dinos?)of land,sea and air

Day 6 = 60,000 years (This is where it gets tricky) 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
My interpretation God made what we call CAVEMAN!!! Follow with me please!!!!

Day 7 = 70,000 yrs He rested!

Genesis 2:4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens
5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

Everything died cause there was no rain. The extinction of Dinos, and cavemen. Now after everything the Bible tells us again that God made common man i.e. Adam & Eve

Genesis 2:6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

 

[Django]

Could very well be. Science and religion do not have to be at odds, though they typically are. Science is derived from the natural curiosity of man, and if you are a Believer, wouldn't it make sense that God Himself gave us that trait, and did so for a reason?

My problem with religion is it's inflexibility, even in the face of proof. Just ask Galileo about that hehe. I would be able to take it much more to heart, if they were able to say that we now know things that we didn't before. Now, that doesn't have to change the intent of religion, just a few minor "facts". It's real hard for me to believe any of it when they defend things that I know aren't true. Sort of like politics hehe.

And you might not have been there at the time Tim, but I don't think it was that long afterwards that you showed up LOL.

Part of my motivation for creating this thread was to help develop a greater sense of awareness of spiritual things ...and incorporating them into our thought processes and daily actions. That is, without the necessity to become religious.

I apologize for reiterating this, but I consider religion kind of a dirty word.

When we become more concerned over promoting a specific belief system over becoming recreated in the image of The Creator (which is reliousness per se) we have then sold out to the corporation. Love is the Ultimate goal for me.... Not selling Eternity in Hell/Heaven or any other stick or carrot.

Love is it's own reward. Just as all of the virtues are. God is Love. That's what I follow. That's what I live for. Love never fails.

D

 

[FASTFOOD]

The time line for the big bang is fairly similar BUT we did not evolve from cave men we were made after them ....

 

[Wifey]

Dinosaurs HAD to exist,you simply can't dispute the fossils and skeletons.I tend to take most of the Bible literally,BUT there is the possibility,even probability ,that not all of creative history was recorded,just what we needed to know.:dontknow:

Evolution/Creation seems to divide most people along the scientific/spiritual lines.I personally don't like the idea of evolution,however I don't have a problem with anyone that does believe it.

I think it is in Utah:dontknow: where you can see the footprints of Dinosaurs and Man in the same place, in the same sedimentary rock. put there about the same time and it was not millions of years ago.

I do believe man was created on the 6th day (Genesis 26 -31) in verse 28 it is stated "Be fruitful, and multiply,and replenish the earth" This goes along with other verses that more than suggests there was another earth age(and inhabitants) Before the one we are in.

Adam Was Not created until after the 7th day

Trees at the base of Mt Saint Helen ( now underwater are already fossilized)
yet the scientific group says it takes millions of years for this to occur ( there is evidence of the same type of fossilization throughout the world.)
So much for the fossil record

The Sieliacant Fish (spelling) was extinct until it was discovered the local fisherman in Madagascar have been catching them all along

So Nelson, I am with you no evolution, just spontaneous mutations to adapt to changes in habitat or caused by genetic mutation due to pollution created by man himself.

 

[OCBob]

So Nelson, I am with you no evolution, just spontaneous mutations to adapt to changes in habitat or caused by genetic mutation due to pollution created by man himself.

ummmm, that's evolution heheh.

 

[Wifey]

ummmm, that's evolution heheh.

I think not , just as Darwin tried to make the case of the Finches (beak size) evolving (from island to island in the Galapagos islands) it has been pr oven this is not the case. The birds simple adapt back and forth according to the food supply of the seasons of that particular year ( the beak sizes changes larger or smaller) Darwin was an Idiot furthering his own agenda.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/7316912#7316912

Millions of years old???????????

 

[Django]

The term "idiot" is relative.......

D

 

[Black1]

I think not , just as Darwin tried to make the case of the Finches (beak size) evolving (from island to island in the Galapagos islands) it has been pr oven this is not the case. The birds simple adapt back and forth according to the food supply of the seasons of that particular year ( the beak sizes changes larger or smaller) Darwin was an Idiot furthering his own agenda.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/7316912#7316912

Millions of years old???????????

I don't see how that is impossible, if that part of the fossil was in a vacuum of some kind. :dontknow: Lots of things are possible if the animal died in mud or tar-pits.

 

[Prof]

Consider adding to the comments above...all of the issues mentioned were and are part of a plan, not every detail but the major causes and effects. Consider the majesty of a creator that constructs the concept of natural selection or survival of the fittest, evolution, the big bang.

I try as hard as I can to find ways to make science and spirituality work hand in hand...I will never be totally successful, but the magic of being human is the will to strive for more than can ever be achieved...what a gift that has been!

 

[joemags54]

The specie does not change to environmental pressure. It is the individual that can best survive this change, that survives. (a subtle difference to what has been said here). That is what shapes the specie over time, through the inheritance of these characteristics. The most classic case cited are the moths in England, during the industrial age. Most white moths were happy living their lives until the deposition of soot on trees was so heavy it provided a wonderful contrasting background. This made it easier for birds to pick them off. Not so for the randomly mutated darker colored moths that went on to survive. Darwin established set principles that most species follow. I donot consider him an idiot, just a person with a powerful sense of observation. These observations became the basis for the Theory (yes I know what a theory is) of Evolution. It also pays to note, at this point, that man has about 28 vestigial organs (things we don't need anymore). Wifey, I have never heard of man walking side by side with the dinosaurs so I would like to see the evidence. The oldest manlike creature dates back 3.5 mil yrs ago.( modern man, only about 150,000yrs). The dinosaurs went extinct some 65 mil yrs ago. There is plenty more but, I don't want to ho this thread.

 

[Prof]

I have 29

 

[joemags54]

I have 29

LOL. I didn't get the joke right away! I laughed out loud. That condition would not help the specie survive. !!

 

[Prof]

In my case it has limited my ability to denigrate the gene pool.

 

[OCBob]

I have 29

From what I have observed (not necessarily here) it seems that most people have 29. But in their case the last one is the brain. hehehe

 

[joemags54]

In my case it has limited my ability to denigrate the gene pool.

........Self deprecating humor. A true sign of self confidence

 

[joemags54]

From what I have observed (not necessarily here) it seems that most people have 29. But in their case the last one is the brain. hehehe

Good one OC! You are spot on! (Django sorry for ho-ing)

 

[Django]

Good one OC! You are spot on! (Django sorry for ho-ing)

Hoing is fine, but those big words are used simply to make others feel stupid...

D

 

[Azmal]

Since we're already here I'll add a few points of my own. I hope what I say will be interesting and more directed at the factual information we can in general agree upon.

Religion isn't inherently incompatible with evolution but certain forms of religion are when they make claims about the universe/the world around us such as the age of the world and universe. And if a religious document says that someone walked on water, parted a water mass, spontaneously created matter it conflicts with every physical law we've ever known and experienced for ourselves.

We are all very familiar with the Cristian faith vs. evolution mainly because our geographical zone and the predominant faith of our area. Other countries such as Sweden, the UK and many parts of Europe all have much lower religious faith and drastically lower religious involvement and it's often more tradition than faith.
But anyway, since Christianity is what we're used to here, I'll talk to address it specifically in general for the sake of simplicity.

One of the conflicts is of course the age of the universe. Often the conception of the conflict is that there was either a big "Bang" or a god made it appear. It should be pointed out that the theory known as the "Big Bang" has nothing to do with the actual bang, and as a side point, there is no air in space thus no audible sound waves to be heard. It was given this name long ago when the idea was being developed as attempt to ridicule it but the name stuck. That's all trivial but the point being that the theory we refer to as the big bang has to do with everything after that. Probably mainly concerning the expansion of our universe and the gradual formation of the universe we see today.

There are entirely too many independent measurements and observations to discredit the age of our universe and world. I believe this is something most everyone can agree with but if not I can elaborate further.

The conflict actually lies in the Young Earth model which I'm not entirely familiar with but suggests the earth is 6000 years old. This is the prescribed view of most fundamentalists and evangelicals. It is taught this way to the children of parents who subscribe to this view. The model is constructed on a number of factors and I believe mainly it pieces together the time lines of key characters such as Moses and such. And the great flood which is placed around 4000 years ago in this model.

The other problem with time is that there is a lot of human timeline around from 145,000 up to 200,000 years ago. Futher problem with Adam and Eve is genetics. You would expect us to all have genetic markers from Adam and Eve if we are their descendants but instead we see markers that show our common ancestor at 200,000 circa years ago in Africa.


Concerning monkeys: Most people just don't like the idea of thinking they are a monkey and I've heard preachers throw that to their congregation to ridicule the theory of evolution. Well, hate to say, but if the shoe fits... chimps are our closest cousin and we ARE primates. I'll add that this concept predates Darwin. There have been biologists before Darwin of course and there have been studies made and classifications made for the different genus, families, and species. For instance we all know dogs are canines and whether it's a lab or a terrier, it's still a canine. And there are things that make them classified as such; such as being quadrupeds, skull shape, teeth structure, skeletal structure, etc. In the same way, studies were done on primates and it was a very curious thing to the early biologists why we as humans fit into the 'monkey' category. Darwin merely added clarification. Point being that if you disbelieve evolution because you don't want to be a monkey, even if evolution could be wrong, you still fit the primate classification.

It's worth adding that those who believe there is a creator who made the universe and left it be from then on are deists.

Those who say 'Everything is God and God is everything' or 'God is emotion' or 'God is Energy' and such are technically pantheists and do not believe in a personal god. It's essentially purely metaphorical and seems more like a meaningless pseudo idealism in my opinion, not something to hold with reverence.

A theist is someone who believes there is a personal god who can and does interact and with human life.

Though every Christian almost invariably has wildly differing views from the next, they are usually theists even though they talk like a deist or pantheist. The christian doctrine is not a deist or pantheistic doctrine.

Just wanted to toss that out there.