Forced Induction Questions - Help Me Decide

[Scrambler1]

Do you know what these things cost? I've sent SCT an email asking but was just curious and to get the ball rolling thought I'd ask you. How does the SCT plug into a laptop as-is, I (from memory) never received any extra cables/adapters in their "stock" kit? I'm guessing you need to purchase some USB style cable that plugs the SCT to a laptop? Electronics is one thing I don't think I'll ever get my head around lol. Perhaps in layman's terms?

1) Plug SCT into laptop via USB style cable
2) Tune truck to desired settings and "save" to SCT
3) Load recently saved tune into truck via main-port
4) DONE

Is that how it works? Sorry for the newb like questions.


Thanks,
Carl

I never actually bought one because at that time (about 8 months ago) SCT didn't have data log capabilities for our trucks. They do now but that was before I was running twin turbos so now I'm doing something else for engine mgt. So I don't know what it was going to cost or exactly how they plug up to a laptop. I'd imagine the software would come with any cables that you'd need. They'll even sell you a dedicated laptop with the software already installed on it.

From my understanding of it and seeing cars tuned with SCT, do all the tuning on the laptop, save to the sct programmer, flash the PCM through the daignostic port. It only takes a couple of minutes to change from one program to another... ie street vs race tunes. I've been very pleased with it on my brother's twin turbo mustang. Easy to use and never given us a problem.

Yep I believe that the VEC caused the death of my engine. Course I don't know that for a fact nor can I prove it. Was it the fault of the VEC itself or loose wiring? Don't know. Like I said, some have had good experience with it and some haven't, I'm one of the not good ones.

I've got a Paxton for sale that would be perfect for you... hint hint

 

[black pearl]

Maybe get in touch with DC Performance. Chris is one of the best tuners for these engines.

 

[Carlwalski]

I never actually bought one because at that time (about 8 months ago) SCT didn't have data log capabilities for our trucks. They do now but that was before I was running twin turbos so now I'm doing something else for engine mgt. So I don't know what it was going to cost or exactly how they plug up to a laptop. I'd imagine the software would come with any cables that you'd need. They'll even sell you a dedicated laptop with the software already installed on it.

From my understanding of it and seeing cars tuned with SCT, do all the tuning on the laptop, save to the sct programmer, flash the PCM through the daignostic port. It only takes a couple of minutes to change from one program to another... ie street vs race tunes. I've been very pleased with it on my brother's twin turbo mustang. Easy to use and never given us a problem.

Yep I believe that the VEC caused the death of my engine. Course I don't know that for a fact nor can I prove it. Was it the fault of the VEC itself or loose wiring? Don't know. Like I said, some have had good experience with it and some haven't, I'm one of the not good ones.

I've got a Paxton for sale that would be perfect for you... hint hint

LOL! I hear yah, I don't want to come off as a snob or anything but I like to have the best for my vehicles and that always includes brand new products. Nothing against you, I bet it's better than new lol but I have OCD, hard to explain lol

Funny you should mention the data logging as that is exactly what I am after. I called SCT this morning and the tech guy said that I would need a PRP (Pro Racer Software). He said you can get it from vendors and I mentioned Roe, he confirmed he would sell it but and a big BUT, it has no data logging so he said my tuner would basically be in the dark. They have no data logging for these vehicles yet. Also, since I went from manual to auto, do you think there will be any PCM DTCs popping up? I know the auto trucks had different PCM set ups for the autos and is one reason Paxton sell auto/manual kits because of that. Just curious is all. Thus far the truck is perfect with no CELs at all.



black pearl - Thanks, but being down under it's of little to no use and I still want my tuner to do the work but he can't cut trees with a kitchen knife.



Thanks guys!

 

[black pearl]

I just meant you could pick his brain on the correct direction to go with the tune.

 

[WOT]

I have the SCT pro racer package. You download a stock tune, make changes to that tune and then save it. You can have as many iterations and variations of the tune as you like. You can save each one separately. Then,you can put any 3 tunes into the SCT XCalibrator 2 Flash Programmer through a standard USB cable. You can then put any one of those 3 tunes into the truck's PCM by using the Flash programmer and attached OBDII cable. If you don't like tune 1, try tune 2, or tune 3. It only takes about 5 minutes to flash a new tune from the XCalibrator 2 to the truck's PCM. If none of them are to your liking, you can go back to your laptop, make 3 more tunes to test with and load them into the Flash Programmer so that they can be loaded onto the truck.

You cannot however do any type of 'live' programming. You make changes to the tune on the laptop or PC, shoot the tune over to the flash programmer through the USB cable, and then use the flash programmer to push the tune onto the truck's PCM. It's basically a trial and error process.

 

[Carlwalski]

I have the SCT pro racer package. You download a stock tune, make changes to that tune and then save it. You can have as many iterations and variations of the tune as you like. You can save each one separately. Then,you can put any 3 tunes into the SCT XCalibrator 2 Flash Programmer through a standard USB cable. You can then put any one of those 3 tunes into the truck's PCM by using the Flash programmer and attached OBDII cable. If you don't like tune 1, try tune 2, or tune 3. It only takes about 5 minutes to flash a new tune from the XCalibrator 2 to the truck's PCM. If none of them are to your liking, you can go back to your laptop, make 3 more tunes to test with and load them into the Flash Programmer so that they can be loaded onto the truck.

You cannot however do any type of 'live' programming. You make changes to the tune on the laptop or PC, shoot the tune over to the flash programmer through the USB cable, and then use the flash programmer to push the tune onto the truck's PCM. It's basically a trial and error process.

Aha! *he exclaimed* that is what I was thinking would be the case which I think would be OK. Where did you purchase your Pro Racer package from, what did it cost and did you have them do any base tunes with your current mods etc? So basically, the tuner can still set and adjust things like air and fuel ratios etc but it has to be done while on a lap not connected directly to the car. He then "makes" the tune on a laptop with the data and that he gathered from tuning on the dyno etc and loads into into the car via the SCT. Not ideal but it seems like perhaps the best route to take at this stage. Thanks again for the info.


black pearl - I see, wasn't sure as your post was a little vague. Makes sense, I'll see how I go with searching and the info from you guys and will probably email him if I'm still unsure. Thanks!

 

[bigike]

LOL! I hear yah, I don't want to come off as a snob or anything but I like to have the best for my vehicles and that always includes brand new products. Nothing against you, I bet it's better than new lol but I have OCD, hard to explain lol

Funny you should mention the data logging as that is exactly what I am after. I called SCT this morning and the tech guy said that I would need a PRP (Pro Racer Software). He said you can get it from vendors and I mentioned Roe, he confirmed he would sell it but and a big BUT, it has no data logging so he said my tuner would basically be in the dark. They have no data logging for these vehicles yet. Also, since I went from manual to auto, do you think there will be any PCM DTCs popping up? I know the auto trucks had different PCM set ups for the autos and is one reason Paxton sell auto/manual kits because of that. Just curious is all. Thus far the truck is perfect with no CELs at all.



black pearl - Thanks, but being down under it's of little to no use and I still want my tuner to do the work but he can't cut trees with a kitchen knife.



Thanks guys!

Your being a snob, it's a newish set up that is tweaked, cheap and modified to fit your vehicle..... If you don't jump on a deal like that just to buy a new one, then you deserve to spend the 12,000 ot 13,000 it will cost to mimic what he's offering for 4,000.........

Why say no when yes feels soooo good.

 

[bigike]

Train your OCD to like things that are awesome, then you can buy the blower

 

[Carlwalski]

Your being a snob, it's a newish set up that is tweaked, cheap and modified to fit your vehicle..... If you don't jump on a deal like that just to buy a new one, then you deserve to spend the 12,000 ot 13,000 it will cost to mimic what he's offering for 4,000.........

Why say no when yes feels soooo good.

EDIT - Actually, looking at his kit, it looks very good especially for a RHD vehicle. Time to PM!!!

 

[WOT]

...Where did you purchase your Pro Racer package from, what did it cost and did you have them do any base tunes with your current mods etc? So basically, the tuner can still set and adjust things like air and fuel ratios etc but it has to be done while on a lap not connected directly to the car. He then "makes" the tune on a laptop with the data and that he gathered from tuning on the dyno etc and loads into into the car via the SCT. Not ideal but it seems like perhaps the best route to take at this stage. Thanks again for the info....

I purchased the Pro Racer package directly from SCT. I think it was around $350. It comes with no tunes whatsoever. I have previously purchased the SCT XCalibrator Flash progammer from Marty at KRC. I wasn't happy with the tunes, and at the time Marty became unresponsive. So, I decided to do the tuning myself and bought the Pro Racer package. It is definitely not intuitive, but I think I have it all figured out for the most part.

If you don't already have the flash programmer, you would have to add an additional $300-400 for that component.

I'm not sure that you couldn't flash an auto tranny program onto a manual PCM. I think it would work. However, only a few of the auto tranny parameters are even activated in the software. You can change all the parameters, but SCT told me that only a very few will actually get written to the file.

 

[Carlwalski]

I purchased the Pro Racer package directly from SCT. I think it was around $350. It comes with no tunes whatsoever. I have previously purchased the SCT XCalibrator Flash progammer from Marty at KRC. I wasn't happy with the tunes, and at the time Marty became unresponsive. So, I decided to do the tuning myself and bought the Pro Racer package. It is definitely not intuitive, but I think I have it all figured out for the most part.

If you don't already have the flash programmer, you would have to add an additional $300-400 for that component.

I'm not sure that you couldn't flash an auto tranny program onto a manual PCM. I think it would work. However, only a few of the auto tranny parameters are even activated in the software. You can change all the parameters, but SCT told me that only a very few will actually get written to the file.

Thanks WOT, thanks very much. I haven't seen that guy Marty around here for a while now. I guess all those STS threads and feedback put him off this place? Who knows but anyhow, thanks for the info. I'll pass this on to my tuner and go from there. I may email DC Performance as Black Pearl said as they do TONNES of Paxton installs and helped design it so I may get a base tune off them that is relatively close to start with. Ps: Yes, I do have the XCalibrator-2 SCT unit already so I would like to stick with it. $1,300+ for the VEC3 is not something I would love to pay for lol if at all possible.

 

[WOT]

The only issue with having someone else do the tunes and email them to you is that you won't be able to then modify the tune yourself.

There are 2 types of files that a tuner can send you:
The first is the actual compiled tune file (.ll3 file) that gets put into the handheld flash programmer to be flashed onto your PCM. You cannot read from this file or see any of the values used to make this file. So, you can't load it back onto the laptop and make slight changes -- you basically have to start from scratch if you want to use the Pro Racer package to modify the tune.
The second type of file is for use with the Pro Racer package and is the Value File (.mtf file). It has all the values for all of the parameters that go into the tune. It is compiled and put into the flash programmer or compiled into a .ll3 file to be emailed. Once it is in this form, it cannot be read from. It can only be flashed onto the truck's PCM. If you want to make changes, you go back to the laptop software, make changes to the .mtf file, and then compile it into another .ll3 file to be emailed or just compile it directly into the flash programmer to be flashed onto you truck's PCM.

If you can get a tuner to send you his .mtf file, you can make tweaks and changes to that tune as much as you like and make your own .ll3 files. If your tuner just sends you the .ll3 file, you cannot make any changes and will effectively be starting from scratch if you want to use the Pro Racer software.

 

[Carlwalski]

Dang, WOT, you da man!


Thanks heaps.

 

[Carlwalski]

UPDATE:


I collected the BATRAM today for the first time it's up the drive. The mechanical side of the auto conversion ONLY is done. My interior guy is on Honeymoon so instead of sitting at the shop for a few weeks I'll get used to it and test out it's new limits, mainly traction for the Super Charger/NA/Engine build purpose. It was the worst day to bring it home, pouring down. My mechanic and I went for a blat and he did a few 80% throttle launches off the line in the worst conditions and it was "OK", got fish tailed pretty easy. Tomorrow it's dry and I will take it out to Mad Max country and give it some death to see what the real limits are when it matters - in the dry. Thus far the truck kicks arse, surprisingly enough........I haven't gone for the imaginary clutch at all lol. More updates to follow. The next few days are test and tune days, traction testing being the main aim. I will see what I feel this truck can take and put down. I'd rather have a vehicle that could put 550rwhp down fully @ WOT than a truck with 700rwhp that has to feather it all the time. I will know more tomorrow after some WOT fun.........

 

[Carlwalski]

DECISION MADE

UPDATE & CONCLUSION:


Well after some hard running and launches I have decided and my shop agrees, that a Super Charger WON'T be going in. This truck is a new animal and the kick down is wicked cool. The engine at a guesstimate is around 470-480rwhp (580 fly-hp) as-is and off the line in the dry it hooks - just. I was doing around 20mph and floored it in slightly damp (morning frost) conditions and the rear end went out quite hard, it also hazed the tires quite well around 45mph when I made the trans kick down, applying throttle gradually is fine and the tires chirp in all gears. It almost amazes me any of you guys get ANY traction with your SC kits, honestly, I can't see it happening, not without a lot of feathering. While I don't mind correcting fish tails and "controlled slides" it's not something I am aiming to achieve from my truck/build.

To me, and again, my shop agrees, I/we don't see ANY reason at all to throw another 150rwhp+ into a truck that can barely handle bolt on power unless it was a burnout only machine, track only truck or you like to brag (then actually drive it and get smoked by a truck that hooks) lol. No performance builder I know of aims to build a vehicle so it loses traction. My goals have always been to have traction and be reliable, hp last. So, I have decided to build a nice stout NA build and up the power by what we think can be tuned and dialed in via the suspension then via the ground, around 50-80rwhp more than my current set up. At that stage I will paint the block, custom logo the heads and completely tidy up the OEM mess of an engine bay.

As I said, the truck as is is a bullet and feels like a low 12 or high 11 second truck. In the dry it bites hard and chirps the tires through the gears plus has great firm instant shifts. I have honestly never had any automatic close to this beast, it's unbelievable. Plus, it's the only sure fire way to get rid of the aftermarket shifter whine LMAO! With a NA build there are no FI "sweet spots" or power surges. In an NA build you get the same power any time, anywhere and all controlled by the right foot, all while being reliable because keep in mind, this is my daily driver. Who would have thought this would be my decision eh lol but, that is why I ask these questions and get the feedback and opinions, better to ask now than to wonder later. Thanks once again to everyone who has helped me and my BATRAM come to this conclusion. I'm thinking the BATRAM will be complete in around 2-3 months.



Regards,
Carl

 

[bigike]

Thats what I like about the twin screw.... It's act's like its n/a. No coming into boost you floor it, you get 6 psi and it stays there until you get out of it.

 

[Carlwalski]

It's still FI and anything up to 600lb-ft of torque at 2,000rpm isn't something we see as useful, just personal preference I guess and what I think the truck is capable of getting to the ground. My goal now is to do the engine work, custom the bay and dial in the suspension to make a real stout and reliable street package. Just went for another drive and as-is it's a perfect combo in terms of what the BATRAM will handle, hooks and bites well in the dry but every now and then still spins then up from a kickdown - great fun and right near the very limits of my truck in terms of usable hp. Simple decision in the end, no point making hp/T you can't use.

 

[Carlwalski]

Thanks mate. My mind is always opened and open to new ideas, the BATRAM should be testament to that lol but in all honesty, I still don't see the need for any FI on a truck that will never get power to the ground unless you go Jacks route and I'm not out to make a race truck. I can see top end perhaps but for me it's traction traction traction. Just look at ALL the FI vids on You Tube. Not 1 hooks and I think to be fair, the 1/4 mile times of these trucks are even more proof that traction is where we are losing the battle. Once again, I'm not dissing any SC set ups, I think they are cool and the #s are good for what the kits are and it's all how you want to drive the truck and what you aim to achieve. Me and my shop don't see the point when it hooks and hauls as is (just).

The BATRAM is a daily driving all rounder. Once I've touched up the bay (personalised it) had a proper tune and dialed in the suspension (removing JMB "Traction" pack) as all it's really doing is stopping the leafs from doing their job. We'll be doing something of our own (to me) once we're done it will be a perfect street fighter. I will post up some vids of the truck launching and going through the gears at speed in and out of the truck at a later date. Keep in mind once the custom bay is done appearance wise, IF and I mean if in future I want more power or feel we can squeeze more out of the traction side of things then I can always do it then. In hindsight I should have avoided this thread and waited until I had drive the BATRAM and it's auto setup, but, as usual, I got too impatient LOL



Cheers

 

[Prof]

Carl...I hear your traction, traction, traction issue.

But I will put my Roe equipped truck up against all of the normally aspirated SRT 10 trucks from a roll, from a dead stop, or top end...and I will be the winner 98% of the time. That sir, is the bottom line.

So while I hear your lament, the fact is that in nearly every instance your truck will lose to a supercharged vehicle...but if that is not your concern have at it.

 

[Carlwalski]

Carl...I hear your traction, traction, traction issue.

But I will put my Roe equipped truck up against all of the normally aspirated SRT 10 trucks from a roll, from a dead stop, or top end...and I will be the winner 98% of the time. That sir, is the bottom line.

So while I hear your lament, the fact is that in nearly every instance your truck will lose to a supercharged vehicle...but if that is not your concern have at it.

Big generalization their Roy, NA trucks deserve more credit, mine is very mild 490-500rwhp MAX but others are up around the 550-580rwhp mark and a totally different kettle of fish to FI builds. Can you honestly tell me your Roe build can be floored off the line 100% WOT and bite hard and launch? Just out of curiosity, what is your Roe truck doing the 1/4 mile in? I have no doubt your truck will win in most cases but it won't be as clear cut as you're making out. Cars that make hp and have no traction often come up and get beaten by the same vehicle with less hp that actual bite. What they lack in hp they make up for in putting what they do have, to the ground and that Sir, is what matters. When you do bite that is a different story obviously, just a matter of how much feathering you have to do and how much catching up is required.