The Skeptics Thread

[Ram From Hell]

I've been very close to death on occasion... At those times I've never felt more alive.D

Uh, D? We call that adrenalin.

I've been seriously close to death personally, and I have a friend who has died FIVE TIMES this decade alone (he's honestly not exactly sure how many times he has died in his lifetime). Oddly enough, we haven't seen anything remotely akin to, well, anything at all. Although, one of the best cigarettes I ever smoked was after I came to a rest in the median some 75 yards from where I was ejected from the vehicle.

 

[Ram From Hell]

I admit I must have missed the question

But,if it is "Why are there 7 books left out of the Bible ?",my answer is : I honestly don't know.

I have heard of "The Apocrypha" ( spelling ?) .It was left out of the King James Version (which is the only one I use ) because the scholars compiling "THE BIBLE" after much study,prayer and comparison to other long accepted scriptures deemed them unacceptable as Holy Scripture.

There were also the works of Josephus that, while historically accurate,were also deemed unworthy of being called "Holy Scripture".

Maybe this helps and maybe it muddies the waters even further. Bottom line is ...........I just don't know for sure.

IV. Apocrypha:

This name applies to a group of books, mainly written during the intertestamental period.

I ESDRAS: (about 150 B.C.)-draws considerably from Chronciles, Ezra, and Nehemiah, tells of the restoration of the Jews to Palestine after the Babylonian exile. Adds much legendary material. 2 ESDRAS: (100 A.D.), contains seven visions.

TOBIT: (2nd cent. B.C.)-emphasizes the Law, clean foods, ceremonial washings, charity, fasting, prayer, states that almsgiving atones for sin. It is claimed that Tobit was alive when the Assyrians conquered Israel (722 B.C.) as well as when Jeroboam revolted against Judah (931 B.C. -time span=209 years), yet his total life-span was only 158 years (14:11; cf. 1:3-5).

JUDITH: (middle 2nd cent. B.C.) Contains subbiblical teachings. Judith was assisted by God in a deed of falsehood (9:10,13); and historical error-Judith speaks of Nebuchadnezzar as reigning in Nineveh instead of Babylon (1:1) "William H. Green concisely summarizes this evidence, as he writes, 'The books of Tobit and Judith abound in geographical, chronological, and historical mistakes, so as not only to vitiate the truth of the narratives which they contain, but to make it doubtful whether they even rest upon a basis of fact." (Geisler/Nix).

ADDITIONS TO ESTHER: (about 100 B.C.) The additions have long prayers attributed to Moredecai and Esther, with a couple of letters supposedly written by Artaxerxes.

THE WISDOM OF SOLOMON: (about A.D. 40)

ECCLESIASTICUS: Or, The Wisdom of Sirach (about 180 B.C.) Somewhat like Proverbs and contains practical advice. Yet it and the "Wisdom of Solomon" both teach a morality based on experience.

BARUCH: (about A.D. 100) Claims to be written by the scribe who served Jeremiah.

BEL AND THE DRAGON: A chapter which is added to the book of Daniel.

SONG OF THE THREE HEBREW CHILDREN: Follows Daniel 3:23, borrows heavily from Psalm 148.

THE PRAYER OF MANASSEH: Claims to be the prayer of the wicked king Manasseh.

FIRST MACCABEES: (1st cent. B.C.) Records the exploits of the three Maccabean brothers.

SECOND MACCABEES: Which is not a sequel, but a parallel account, treating only the victories of Judas Maccabeus. Teaches prayers for the dead. (12:45-46), which contradicts the Scriptures (Heb. 9:27; Luke 16:25-26).

 

[Django]

I admit I must have missed the question

But,if it is "Why are there 7 books left out of the Bible ?",my answer is : I honestly don't know.

I have heard of "The Apocrypha" ( spelling ?) .It was left out of the King James Version (which is the only one I use ) because the scholars compiling "THE BIBLE" after much study,prayer and comparison to other long accepted scriptures deemed them unacceptable as Holy Scripture.

There were also the works of Josephus that, while historically accurate,were also deemed unworthy of being called "Holy Scripture".

Maybe this helps and maybe it muddies the waters even further. Bottom line is ...........I just don't know for sure.

Hey Nelson,

I think you may have very well swerved into something insightful here. Please understand where my heart is and that I have no desire to be harsh.

You mentioned that, "a number of scholars (mortal men) after much study, prayer and comparison .... deemed them as acceptable." This makes a very good point for those of us who question the "God breathed God indwelt" wholesale acceptance of the Bible (or any scripture for that matter) as being the unmolested / direct words of God.

Fact is, it's just a buncha guys who had authority over the whole shebang... Not only the purity of the translations but the very content of the Bible itself. The result was obviously doctrinally skewed and an agenda driven.

As such, it is preposterous to presume that a committee of flesh and blood humans transcribed it exactly as it came from the very mouth of God.... And if they did manage to do the job without fkn it all up, it'll be the first time man did a perfect job of ANYTHING in the history of mankind on this earth...

I love my Bible... After this many years I can safely say that it has been a source of great wisdom, inspiration and revealtion to me. But there are times when I just wanna scream at the translators and revisionists who massaged it into a self contradictory, error prone, sometimes even silly piece of work....

I love God.... and it pisses me off that men corrupted His Word almost to the point where His Divine Will has become virtually unrecognizable.

Peace,

tadp

 

[HOT RAM]

IV. Apocrypha:

This name applies to a group of books, mainly written during the intertestamental period.

I ESDRAS: (about 150 B.C.)-draws considerably from Chronciles, Ezra, and Nehemiah, tells of the restoration of the Jews to Palestine after the Babylonian exile. Adds much legendary material. 2 ESDRAS: (100 A.D.), contains seven visions.

TOBIT: (2nd cent. B.C.)-emphasizes the Law, clean foods, ceremonial washings, charity, fasting, prayer, states that almsgiving atones for sin. It is claimed that Tobit was alive when the Assyrians conquered Israel (722 B.C.) as well as when Jeroboam revolted against Judah (931 B.C. -time span=209 years), yet his total life-span was only 158 years (14:11; cf. 1:3-5).

JUDITH: (middle 2nd cent. B.C.) Contains subbiblical teachings. Judith was assisted by God in a deed of falsehood (9:10,13); and historical error-Judith speaks of Nebuchadnezzar as reigning in Nineveh instead of Babylon (1:1) "William H. Green concisely summarizes this evidence, as he writes, 'The books of Tobit and Judith abound in geographical, chronological, and historical mistakes, so as not only to vitiate the truth of the narratives which they contain, but to make it doubtful whether they even rest upon a basis of fact." (Geisler/Nix).

ADDITIONS TO ESTHER: (about 100 B.C.) The additions have long prayers attributed to Moredecai and Esther, with a couple of letters supposedly written by Artaxerxes.

THE WISDOM OF SOLOMON: (about A.D. 40)

ECCLESIASTICUS: Or, The Wisdom of Sirach (about 180 B.C.) Somewhat like Proverbs and contains practical advice. Yet it and the "Wisdom of Solomon" both teach a morality based on experience.

BARUCH: (about A.D. 100) Claims to be written by the scribe who served Jeremiah.

BEL AND THE DRAGON: A chapter which is added to the book of Daniel.

SONG OF THE THREE HEBREW CHILDREN: Follows Daniel 3:23, borrows heavily from Psalm 148.

THE PRAYER OF MANASSEH: Claims to be the prayer of the wicked king Manasseh.

FIRST MACCABEES: (1st cent. B.C.) Records the exploits of the three Maccabean brothers.

SECOND MACCABEES: Which is not a sequel, but a parallel account, treating only the victories of Judas Maccabeus. Teaches prayers for the dead. (12:45-46), which contradicts the Scriptures (Heb. 9:27; Luke 16:25-26).

You seem to be more a Biblical scholar than me.I knew I shoulda went to seminary.

Thanks for the clarification !

 

[DevilDawg3097]

religion is a way for man to control our faith, just like politics is a way for man to control everything else, I believe in God or creator I don't beleive in religion, that is the main cause of what drives a mans faith away, because most do not practice what they preach. but each person is given there own choice of what to think and what to believe, it is the fanatics that take it to the extreme but there are fanatics everywhere, religion is just another way of seperating us in to groups. And scieance has proven the majority of us come from 1 male and the same with the females, so in chicago we say new york sucks and in new york they say new jersey sucks, no one is right about anything, actually except two things you where born and you will die, its up to you on what you do in the next life. Hey OCBob the best line in the movie dogma is " Is it true chicks fart when you blast them in the ass, bong!":marchmellow: :marchmellow: :burnout:

 

[HOT RAM]

Hey Nelson,

I think you may have very well swerved into something insightful here. Please understand where my heart is and that I have no desire to be harsh.

You mentioned that, "a number of scholars (mortal men) after much study, prayer and comparison .... deemed them as acceptable." This makes a very good point for those of us who question the "God breathed God indwelt" wholesale acceptance of the Bible (or any scripture for that matter) as being the unmolested / direct words of God.

Fact is, it's just a buncha guys who had authority over the whole shebang... Not only the purity of the translations but the very content of the Bible itself. The result was obviously doctrinally skewed and an agenda driven.

As such, it is preposterous to presume that a committee of flesh and blood humans transcribed it exactly as it came from the very mouth of God.... And if they did manage to do the job without fkn it all up, it'll be the first time man did a perfect job of ANYTHING in the history of mankind on this earth...

I love my Bible... After this many years I can safely say that it has been a source of great wisdom, inspiration and revealtion to me. But there are times when I just wanna scream at the translators and revisionists who massaged it into a self contradictory, error prone, sometimes even silly piece of work....

I love God.... and it pisses me off that men corrupted His Word almost to the point where His Divine Will has become virtually unrecognizable.

Peace,

tadp

Tim,you should know by now that I am exremely hard to offend so I do not take anything that anyone says as being harsh.

I don't think the Bible was exactly spoken directly from the mouth of God.I think it was rather that God "inspired" men to write what was later compiled into what we now call the Bible.Some was history,some was poetic,some was prophetic,some was laws-rules-principles.the writings of the Apostle Paul were simply letters to the churches,he started writing and God just took over his thoughts and He wrote letters to all of us !

I have to believe the Bible is Gods word to me,personally.Even if a man tried to mess with it (which I don't think is the case with the KJV,but that's just me),I believe God can make it say to me what He wanted it to say all along.That is just how big God is to me.

I can understand those that have suffered "shepherd abuse" and "sheep bite" and that have received the left foot of fellowship.I have been hurt by pastors,fellow Christians,and ministries myself.It leaves a bad feeling toward the whole thing for a long time.It is hard to overcome.I have yet to return to church from the hurts I have suffered,and yet I still love God.

I am loving this open discussion !

 

[DevilDawg3097]

That is the the problem you can still believe in Christ and not go to church christ did not come here to set up a new religion he came to brake the chains that religion put on everyone and he also told us not to fear death that there is more to our life than we can understand and we will find out when the time comes so until then live your lifes accordingly, you will be judged for what you do in life not what others have done, only you can control the things you do just as I only control what I do. If there is no evil in the world would there be murder jelousy etc. If you believe do not give up because of the ignorance in others. Here is a site for gnostic writings that where removed by the so called scholars and which we have the result of the KJV.

http://pathofyeshua.net/gospelsandtext.htmlhttp://http://pathofyeshua.net/gospelsandtext.html

 

[Prof]

Tim,you should know by now that I am exremely hard to offend so I do not take anything that anyone says as being harsh.

I don't think the Bible was exactly spoken directly from the mouth of God.I think it was rather that God "inspired" men to write what was later compiled into what we now call the Bible.Some was history,some was poetic,some was prophetic,some was laws-rules-principles.the writings of the Apostle Paul were simply letters to the churches,he started writing and God just took over his thoughts and He wrote letters to all of us !

I have to believe the Bible is Gods word to me,personally.Even if a man tried to mess with it (which I don't think is the case with the KJV,but that's just me),I believe God can make it say to me what He wanted it to say all along.That is just how big God is to me.

I can understand those that have suffered "shepherd abuse" and "sheep bite" and that have received the left foot of fellowship.I have been hurt by pastors,fellow Christians,and ministries myself.It leaves a bad feeling toward the whole thing for a long time.It is hard to overcome.I have yet to return to church from the hurts I have suffered,and yet I still love God.

I am loving this open discussion !

You my friend, have a very deep understanding of your faith, and strong rationale to support your beliefs...I am honored to be reading your words...agreement or not...I am growing as you explain your positions...and I also love this...

 

[DevilDawg3097]

http://pathofyeshua.net/gospelsandtext.html sorry

 

[Ram From Hell]

Not all prayer will help.The Bible says that "the prayer of FAITH" shall save the sick.Prayer is entered into far too lightly.When you pray and deep down in your heart expect nothing,why then do we blame God for not answering it ?

Is it not possible that the same outcome arises with or without prayer? It sure seems to be an all to common and easy an answer of "...it's just God's will." to anything that occurs, prayer or no prayer. No need to blame God, just pick a new one and hope for a better result.

Praying in faith is expecting what you are praying for to actually happen.

Now before someone accuses me of being "Jesus the 2nd",I have had prayer and faith failures also.Why ? Well,I will just have to ask God when I get to Heaven.

Any possibility that your prayer and the outcome just didn't happen to coincide?

Philosophical thought for the day :
For those that believe,no explanation is needed.
For those that do not believe,no explanation is possible.

The ultimate wisdom which deals with beginnings, remains locked in a seed. There it lies, the simplest fact of the universe and at the same time the one which calls faith rather than reason.
-Hal Borland

The wise man regulates his conduct by the theories both of religion and science. But he regards these theories not as statements of ultimate fact but as art-forms.
-John B. S. Haldane

Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.
-Max Planck

True religion is real living; living with all one's soul, with all one's goodness and righteousness.
-Albert Einstein

 

[Ram From Hell]

You seem to be more a Biblical scholar than me.I knew I shoulda went to seminary.

Thanks for the clarification !

I won't tell you how many years I've spent in religious studies. I will tell you it's more than I'd have chosen on my own.

 

[HOT RAM]

Is it not possible that the same outcome arises with or without prayer? It sure seems to be an all to common and easy an answer of "...it's just God's will." to anything that occurs, prayer or no prayer. No need to blame God, just pick a new one and hope for a better result.



Any possibility that your prayer and the outcome just didn't happen to coincide?



The ultimate wisdom which deals with beginnings, remains locked in a seed. There it lies, the simplest fact of the universe and at the same time the one which calls faith rather than reason.
-Hal Borland



The wise man regulates his conduct by the theories both of religion and science. But he regards these theories not as statements of ultimate fact but as art-forms.
-John B. S. Haldane

Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.
-Max Planck

True religion is real living; living with all one's soul, with all one's goodness and righteousness.
-Albert Einstein

Of course the possiblity exists that that the "answer" to prayer was merely coincidence,but given the choice,I would rather give God the credit over coincidence.


The Bible says that the whole Kingdom of God is likened unto a seed .
Thanks for the discussion my friend ! :congrats:

 

[HOT RAM]

I won't tell you how many years I've spent in religious studies. I will tell you it's more than I'd have chosen on my own.

Forced submission never yields the desired end result.

 

[HOT RAM]

You my friend, have a very deep understanding of your faith, and strong rationale to support your beliefs...I am honored to be reading your words...agreement or not...I am growing as you explain your positions...and I also love this...

Thanks,Roy ! That means a lot to me !

 

[HOT RAM]

http://pathofyeshua.net/gospelsandtext.html sorry

For what ? You stated your opinion and didn't attack anyone.All opinions help further the discussion.

 

[Django]

Nelson's the man........

D

 

[Django]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqPy2CgT73Q&feature=related

DjD

 

[DC Performance]

I was dropped on my head as a kid, therefore I fix cars.

Every man needs to feel there is a purpose, the lord provides that.

 

[TheSickness]

Nelson's the man........

D

Told ya.........and let me say thank you to you as well my friend. The above exchanges achieved the desired result. Eric " Ramfromhell " great frickin post. But I knew that you already knew this stuff. Your a smart cookie

Tim once again I apologize for where I posted that...I was wrong to do that and I am sorry to see your thread was pulled apart....Truly I am Bro. That was never my intention

 

[Django]

Told ya.........and let me say thank you to you as well my friend. The above exchanges achieved the desired result. Eric " Ramfromhell " great frickin post. But I knew that you already knew this stuff. Your a smart cookie

Tim once again I apologize for where I posted that...I was wrong to do that and I am sorry to see your thread was pulled apart....Truly I am Bro. That was never my intention

God is Love.......... Love never fails, bro... :rock:

D